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As a Flash dev myself it's exactly this idea of the possibility that Flash provides that made the platform appealing to begin with and continues to do so. Sure

As a Flash dev myself it's exactly this idea of the possibility that Flash provides that made the platform appealing to begin with and continues to do so. Sure, you can make some horrible things, but the sheer number of things that you can make is so huge. Is it a good idea to make a 3D visualization of live sound data from the user's microphone and run facial detection on their webcam to overlay the visualization over their mouth while they talk? No, probably not. But I can. And because I can I'm going to experiment a lot more. And out of a million experiments that are only possible with Flash, maybe one is going to produce something truly innovative and unique. That's the power of Flash. New capabilities of HTML are going to open similar experimental doors, and we'll all be better off in many ways because of it. I believe anything that expands what we can do is inherently a good thing, even if it allows things that should never be done.

Semiapies 17y ago
Sheer possibility, sure - but look at what people actually do. The biggest uses of Flash appear to be "show video and audio", followed by "games", and then "make an annoying portfolio site full of pictures that that you can't give someone a specific link to".
tomlin 17y ago
Precisely. This is the point I try to make. Flash gives life to the experimental web. Anyone care to tell me why web devs should want Flash dead? No, not a dumb blanket statement regarding open source. Think. Flash sets the stage (no pun intended) for innovation on the web. What if a developer wanted to introduced a new approach to video conferencing / VOIP and allowed developers to play with the experience among multiple audiences? Why is Flash the spooky village witch, to which we must burn at the stake? We'll wait on the W3C to "standardize" innovative processes into browsers. Good luck with that.
- jrockway 17y ago
  Anyone care to tell me why web devs should want Flash dead? Because it's broken and therefore a pain for users. Should something like Flash exist? Yes. But Flash itself is a bad implementation of a good idea.
  - tomlin 17y ago
    Flash has issues and anything the W3S and WHATWG do is without fault. Down with plugin architecture! All ideas and possible innovations that live outside of our dying, simple-minded, slow-moving, "One or None" religion should be killed! chant Kill Flash! chant Kill Flash! chant Kill Flash! chant /sarcasm
    - jrockway 17y ago
      Give us Flash's source code. That's the problem. Nobody cares about specs, they care that they can't use their computer when a website using Flash is open. If you were a programmer, you'd know that bugs can be fixed. But not by sitting around and complaining, but by writing code. Since Adobe won't let anyone fix their code, so the only solution left is to stop using Flash (and start using something else). The "something else" is improving browser support for fast Javascript, Canvas, video, 3d acceleration, etc.
      - tomlin 17y ago
        Give us Flash's source code. That's the problem. It is a problem, but I am having a hard time believing that perspective. The OOS community can create a player. Since the SWF format is inherently open there is nothing really stopping anyone from making an awesome Flash plugin, yet no one has. Must me a reason for that. Oh wait, there is a reason. Money. Time. Adobe invests millions into R&D every year. Money that is used to do test cases and audience dynamics. OSS community does not. The problem is software patents. Not Adobe. Not OOS. And of course, not Flash. A root problem exists and Flash, like much software, is the result.
- Groxx 17y ago
  Flash can hang around, there isn't anything better yet to do some of those things. Except desktop applications. They'll typically be faster-running too, though granted they'll work on a smaller set of platforms. I think the "death to Flash" cry is primarily a "death to ubiquitous Flash" cry. It's useful in a couple niche areas, but it's used everywhere instead of just those niches, and 99% of the time it's used so much / so poorly, it'd be better if it didn't exist.
- flogic 17y ago
  Flash is ok so long as it's on a leash. Most of us are ok with video games and a few cute things here and there. What we're not ok with replacing the entire browsing experience with flash or flash ads, or anything that just chews the cpu or makes sound without being explicitly requested.

Semiapies 17y ago

Sheer possibility, sure - but look at what people actually do. The biggest uses of Flash appear to be "show video and audio", followed by "games", and then "make an annoying portfolio site full of pictures that that you can't give someone a specific link to".

tomlin 17y ago

Precisely. This is the point I try to make. Flash gives life to the experimental web. Anyone care to tell me why web devs should want Flash dead? No, not a dumb blanket statement regarding open source. Think. Flash sets the stage (no pun intended) for innovation on the web. What if a developer wanted to introduced a new approach to video conferencing / VOIP and allowed developers to play with the experience among multiple audiences? Why is Flash the spooky village witch, to which we must burn at the stake? We'll wait on the W3C to "standardize" innovative processes into browsers. Good luck with that.

jrockway 17y ago
Anyone care to tell me why web devs should want Flash dead? Because it's broken and therefore a pain for users. Should something like Flash exist? Yes. But Flash itself is a bad implementation of a good idea.
- tomlin 17y ago
  Flash has issues and anything the W3S and WHATWG do is without fault. Down with plugin architecture! All ideas and possible innovations that live outside of our dying, simple-minded, slow-moving, "One or None" religion should be killed! chant Kill Flash! chant Kill Flash! chant Kill Flash! chant /sarcasm
  - jrockway 17y ago
    Give us Flash's source code. That's the problem. Nobody cares about specs, they care that they can't use their computer when a website using Flash is open. If you were a programmer, you'd know that bugs can be fixed. But not by sitting around and complaining, but by writing code. Since Adobe won't let anyone fix their code, so the only solution left is to stop using Flash (and start using something else). The "something else" is improving browser support for fast Javascript, Canvas, video, 3d acceleration, etc.
    - tomlin 17y ago
      Give us Flash's source code. That's the problem. It is a problem, but I am having a hard time believing that perspective. The OOS community can create a player. Since the SWF format is inherently open there is nothing really stopping anyone from making an awesome Flash plugin, yet no one has. Must me a reason for that. Oh wait, there is a reason. Money. Time. Adobe invests millions into R&D every year. Money that is used to do test cases and audience dynamics. OSS community does not. The problem is software patents. Not Adobe. Not OOS. And of course, not Flash. A root problem exists and Flash, like much software, is the result.
Groxx 17y ago
Flash can hang around, there isn't anything better yet to do some of those things. Except desktop applications. They'll typically be faster-running too, though granted they'll work on a smaller set of platforms. I think the "death to Flash" cry is primarily a "death to ubiquitous Flash" cry. It's useful in a couple niche areas, but it's used everywhere instead of just those niches, and 99% of the time it's used so much / so poorly, it'd be better if it didn't exist.
flogic 17y ago
Flash is ok so long as it's on a leash. Most of us are ok with video games and a few cute things here and there. What we're not ok with replacing the entire browsing experience with flash or flash ads, or anything that just chews the cpu or makes sound without being explicitly requested.