4 ms·

While I am all for a substantial fine I will be very disappointed if the fine exceeds that given GM for their ignition key recall. There were thirty million plu

While I am all for a substantial fine I will be very disappointed if the fine exceeds that given GM for their ignition key recall. There were thirty million plus cars in that recall for an issue known over decade, an issue which directly lead to death, and they got off for less than a billion. While some might claim "pollution" from the TDIs is killing people the link is not direct and negligible in the big picture when you look at volumes. Frankly I think VW should be blocked from selling any TDI they have in stock, new or used and buy back them all. But a separate fine beyond that? Again, not if exceeds the fine giving GM which by the way also topped Toyota's fine for unintended acceleration which could not even be proven.

YokoZar 11y ago
How is vehicle pollution "negligible"? The effects of pollution are quite measurable and we have pretty good estimates of how many people it kills in aggregate. It's entirely possible for pollution to kill vastly more people than a mechanical fault, albeit it's harder to point at them individually.
- guscost 11y ago
  Well that's a big problem for any lawsuit, the uncertainty inherent in estimating this kind of hazard makes it much harder to prove that someone has been harmed in a legally sound manner. Each side can can get pretty much whatever conclusions they want by paying the right experts. And in the absence of proof our court system is biased in favor of defendants (that's not exactly relevant to negotiations over this fine however since the EPA only has to prove that they broke regulations). I'd guess that NOx can be a meaningful hazard in certain places with lots of cars and/or special geography (LA County for example) but almost nowhere else. I can't prove that hypothesis of course.
  - mikeyouse 11y ago
    Just a quick note, but picking LA County to minimize the impact of something isn't very useful.. LA County has a higher population than 43 states.
    - guscost 11y ago
      What I'm saying is that any analysis is subject to a great deal of uncertainty, not that the impact is minimal. The guess is just for fun. Do you disagree that the effect of NOx probably varies greatly between LA County and any place without the same amount of traffic or special geography? You're welcome to make your own guess for the purpose of discussion.
      - deleted 11y ago
        [deleted]
- deleted 11y ago
  [deleted]
mikeash 11y ago
Why do you call deaths from excess pollution "negligible" but not deaths from faulty ignition switches? Both are very small numbers compared to the roughly 2.6 million people who die each year in the US, and I'm pretty sure the pollution one is the bigger number.
mikestew 11y ago
While I am all for a substantial fine I will be very disappointed if the fine exceeds that given GM for their ignition key recall. You should be disappointed if the fine is unjust, GM not withstanding. That's not to say that I don't agree that the GM case was egregious, but let's agree that someone screwed up/had palms greased/plain didn't do their job, and leave GM out of the decision on what to do with VW. Because if we agree that the GM case was handled poorly, then we shouldn't use it as a basis for further cases. Last serial murder got off, so I'll be disappointed if this guy who hacked up ten people gets life? Set their symbolic heads upon pikes, let them stand as an example to others that may follow. Whether that's a hefty fine, or a buy-back, I don't really know.
guscost 11y ago
I'm inclined to believe the pollution from just 500,000 of these vehicles across the country hasn't harmed as many people as the GM scandal, but that isn't the whole story. The basic idea behind the regulation is that if every manufacturer didn't follow it, there would be a lot more pollution and many more people could be harmed. Whether or not we agree with that prediction is irrelevant. The people elected representatives who made this law, granting regulatory authority, at least in part to prevent it from happening. They have the authority to collect the fine. How many people were actually harmed has nothing to do with it (at least directly). It makes more sense to be upset at how GM (partly owned by the government at the time) got off so easy.

YokoZar 11y ago

How is vehicle pollution "negligible"? The effects of pollution are quite measurable and we have pretty good estimates of how many people it kills in aggregate. It's entirely possible for pollution to kill vastly more people than a mechanical fault, albeit it's harder to point at them individually.

guscost 11y ago
Well that's a big problem for any lawsuit, the uncertainty inherent in estimating this kind of hazard makes it much harder to prove that someone has been harmed in a legally sound manner. Each side can can get pretty much whatever conclusions they want by paying the right experts. And in the absence of proof our court system is biased in favor of defendants (that's not exactly relevant to negotiations over this fine however since the EPA only has to prove that they broke regulations). I'd guess that NOx can be a meaningful hazard in certain places with lots of cars and/or special geography (LA County for example) but almost nowhere else. I can't prove that hypothesis of course.
- mikeyouse 11y ago
  Just a quick note, but picking LA County to minimize the impact of something isn't very useful.. LA County has a higher population than 43 states.
  - guscost 11y ago
    What I'm saying is that any analysis is subject to a great deal of uncertainty, not that the impact is minimal. The guess is just for fun. Do you disagree that the effect of NOx probably varies greatly between LA County and any place without the same amount of traffic or special geography? You're welcome to make your own guess for the purpose of discussion.
    - deleted 11y ago
      [deleted]
deleted 11y ago
[deleted]

mikeash 11y ago

Why do you call deaths from excess pollution "negligible" but not deaths from faulty ignition switches? Both are very small numbers compared to the roughly 2.6 million people who die each year in the US, and I'm pretty sure the pollution one is the bigger number.

mikestew 11y ago

While I am all for a substantial fine I will be very disappointed if the fine exceeds that given GM for their ignition key recall. You should be disappointed if the fine is unjust, GM not withstanding. That's not to say that I don't agree that the GM case was egregious, but let's agree that someone screwed up/had palms greased/plain didn't do their job, and leave GM out of the decision on what to do with VW. Because if we agree that the GM case was handled poorly, then we shouldn't use it as a basis for further cases. Last serial murder got off, so I'll be disappointed if this guy who hacked up ten people gets life? Set their symbolic heads upon pikes, let them stand as an example to others that may follow. Whether that's a hefty fine, or a buy-back, I don't really know.

guscost 11y ago

I'm inclined to believe the pollution from just 500,000 of these vehicles across the country hasn't harmed as many people as the GM scandal, but that isn't the whole story. The basic idea behind the regulation is that if every manufacturer didn't follow it, there would be a lot more pollution and many more people could be harmed. Whether or not we agree with that prediction is irrelevant. The people elected representatives who made this law, granting regulatory authority, at least in part to prevent it from happening. They have the authority to collect the fine. How many people were actually harmed has nothing to do with it (at least directly). It makes more sense to be upset at how GM (partly owned by the government at the time) got off so easy.