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This attitude is the exact reason why Python 3 hasn't been getting the uptake that was expected back when it was released. People who sit around and say "the f

This attitude is the exact reason why Python 3 hasn't been getting the uptake that was expected back when it was released. People who sit around and say "the future is today, and I already have Python 2 today" go on to start even totally new projects in Python 2, when they very well could and probably should be using Python 3. As the sibling comment points out, it's just laziness (and rationalization). There's no two ways around it. Like it or not, the fact of the matter is: for Python programmers, Python 3 is the future. It's really only a matter of time, even if it's much more time than was expected.

Scarbutt 11y ago
This attitude is the exact reason why Python 3 hasn't been getting the uptake that was expected back when it was released. For me Python's strength is the libraries not the language, Python 3 decided to not support all this libraries, so calling it laziness for users to not immediately move to python 3 is a really bad way to put it.
- groovy2shoes 11y ago
  Who said anything about immediacy? Python 3 has been out for nearly 8 years. That's more than enough time to update libraries, especially given that the list of incompatibilities between Python 2 and Python 3 is tiny. So, what have the library developers been doing for the past 8 years? Probably adding features to the Python 2 version of the library. Why? Because Python 3 has seen low adoption. Why? Because the libraries haven't been updated yet. Why? ... It's an endless cycle. If people want Python 3 to be adopted more widely, they ought to adopt it themselves (and many programmers have, though clearly not enough).
  - collinmanderson 11y ago
    Library support for Python 3 is excellent. https://python3wos.appspot.com/ https://python3wos.appspot.com/
BuckRogers 11y ago
You're confused. The unfortunate matter is that it has few to no technical merits. It defined technological churn with total absence of technical innovation. THAT is why it failed. Not because "everyone is lazy". Python3 was lazy. Demanding that everyone including PyPy port, is lazy. Let Python3 live or die based on its technical merits like every other piece of technology. Not to mention I wish the sword you're wielding cut both ways. You aren't entitled to demand someone else's labor any more than your buddies that litter every PyPy post demanding better Python3 support are. I hope you're harassing them for being lazy. You made your own choice. You should have picked based on technical superiority rather than propaganda. To be honest with you, you should be ignored as you chose VERY poorly. Don't dare tell someone else what to use. There are so many better choices to build new software in today than Python3. Python2 on PyPy is one of those. Those people can still port to Python3 if it ever does make sense. Even if that idea clearly threatens some of you, that's the smart play.
- groovy2shoes 11y ago
  Yes, I have made my choice. And frankly, it isn't Python at all. But the fact of the matter is that Python 3 is being actively developed, whereas Python 2 is in maintenance mode, and for how much longer? One of these days, Python 2 will become unsupported, and at that time you either finally move to Python 3, or you fork -- at which point you're no longer, strictly-speaking, programming in Python. You're right that it's also lazy for people to simply demand Python 3 support from the PyPy project without being willing to invest in the effort. I have nothing to add to that, really. I should also add that I'm probably one of the laziest programmers to ever exist, so I'm not trying to demonstrate superiority or anything like that. I'm simply pointing out that refusing to use Python 3 just because it hasn't seen much uptake only perpetuates the problem.
  - BuckRogers 11y ago
    You'd be correct. The distinction is whose fault is that, the lazy Python3 core dev team or the lazy userbase? We'll just assume everyone is lazy in effort towards equality. Python3 was created without any backwards compatibility to make the core dev teams job easier, nothing more nothing less. LAZY?! Yes. That's their prerogative, but the rest of us don't have to use it either. When I say lazy in this post, I mean simply acting on one's self-interests. Because that's what every party involved here is doing. It's important to note the difference between Python the language, and CPython. Using Python2 doesn't mean you're using some deprecated language, there's virtually no difference. That's what made the break such a shame honestly. Moving to Python3 with new code is easy. Most people just have few great reasons to now with their existing projects. People need to stop harassing the community and start harassing Guido van Rossum and the core dev team. Usually when people make a mistake, people fix it. GvR and his rogue band of developers have not corrected the Python3 mistake in any way. They've simply continued their mistake for so long, that people are becoming twisted thinking that it's EVERYONE ELSE who is at fault! Amazing really. CPython2 maintenance mode is just a way for the core dev team to maintain their grip around this whole debacle. If they had the guts to dump it in 2015 they would've lost complete control of the situation. It wasn't out of compassion as they say. Because they simply removed the incentive for a 3rd party to swoop in and takeover CPython2. Even that is backfiring now. People[0] are noticing how Python3 is turning into feature soup, which is never an improvement. Thus Python2's conservatism is starting to be seen as an asset. As far as CPython3 being under active development, so is PyPy and it's superior to CPython. The language doesn't change too much at this point. Python is Python for the most part. When the time comes for someone on 2 to move to 3, it will be a non-issue. They're not "losing out" today in any way by acting in their best interests using 2. Python3 has nothing that didn't already exist as a 3rd party library, nor does it have anything that doesn't exist in form of a backport. Thus technical innovation contained within is zero. Programmers aren't stupid. And I think the PSF folks think we are. Or just blatantly disregard the community that truly made Python what it is. The existing Python2 community is overtly disrespected when called "lazy" and all this type of harassment that goes on. I know I'm in the majority opinion because upvotes don't lie. I'm just a guy who likes "Python", the language. I can't blame you for not using it and honestly, what a mess Guido and his core dev team has created right? Python is my preference but I'm not held hostage by the PSF or Python3. I use Python2, Python3, Boo, PyPy. I don't hate Python3 and don't know anyone who does. It's just no slam dunk, and that's the core development team's fault- and they may lose their battle against Python fans as a result. I do highly dislike the groupthink about Python3, with a portion of the Python community on this topic. One more thing to add, is Python3 inevitable? No. It just fragmented the Python ecosystem. Nothing more. We all won't be on a single version again. GvR and his band of rogue developers should be ashamed of themselves. Again, change happens from the bottom up. Not top down. They failed the community and should abdicate their roles but I'm afraid their egos are too big. [0]http://learning-python.com/books/python-changes-2014-plus.html http://learning-python.com/books/python-changes-2014-plus.ht...

Scarbutt 11y ago

This attitude is the exact reason why Python 3 hasn't been getting the uptake that was expected back when it was released. For me Python's strength is the libraries not the language, Python 3 decided to not support all this libraries, so calling it laziness for users to not immediately move to python 3 is a really bad way to put it.

groovy2shoes 11y ago
Who said anything about immediacy? Python 3 has been out for nearly 8 years. That's more than enough time to update libraries, especially given that the list of incompatibilities between Python 2 and Python 3 is tiny. So, what have the library developers been doing for the past 8 years? Probably adding features to the Python 2 version of the library. Why? Because Python 3 has seen low adoption. Why? Because the libraries haven't been updated yet. Why? ... It's an endless cycle. If people want Python 3 to be adopted more widely, they ought to adopt it themselves (and many programmers have, though clearly not enough).
- collinmanderson 11y ago
  Library support for Python 3 is excellent. https://python3wos.appspot.com/ https://python3wos.appspot.com/

BuckRogers 11y ago

You're confused. The unfortunate matter is that it has few to no technical merits. It defined technological churn with total absence of technical innovation. THAT is why it failed. Not because "everyone is lazy". Python3 was lazy. Demanding that everyone including PyPy port, is lazy. Let Python3 live or die based on its technical merits like every other piece of technology. Not to mention I wish the sword you're wielding cut both ways. You aren't entitled to demand someone else's labor any more than your buddies that litter every PyPy post demanding better Python3 support are. I hope you're harassing them for being lazy. You made your own choice. You should have picked based on technical superiority rather than propaganda. To be honest with you, you should be ignored as you chose VERY poorly. Don't dare tell someone else what to use. There are so many better choices to build new software in today than Python3. Python2 on PyPy is one of those. Those people can still port to Python3 if it ever does make sense. Even if that idea clearly threatens some of you, that's the smart play.

groovy2shoes 11y ago
Yes, I have made my choice. And frankly, it isn't Python at all. But the fact of the matter is that Python 3 is being actively developed, whereas Python 2 is in maintenance mode, and for how much longer? One of these days, Python 2 will become unsupported, and at that time you either finally move to Python 3, or you fork -- at which point you're no longer, strictly-speaking, programming in Python. You're right that it's also lazy for people to simply demand Python 3 support from the PyPy project without being willing to invest in the effort. I have nothing to add to that, really. I should also add that I'm probably one of the laziest programmers to ever exist, so I'm not trying to demonstrate superiority or anything like that. I'm simply pointing out that refusing to use Python 3 just because it hasn't seen much uptake only perpetuates the problem.
- BuckRogers 11y ago
  You'd be correct. The distinction is whose fault is that, the lazy Python3 core dev team or the lazy userbase? We'll just assume everyone is lazy in effort towards equality. Python3 was created without any backwards compatibility to make the core dev teams job easier, nothing more nothing less. LAZY?! Yes. That's their prerogative, but the rest of us don't have to use it either. When I say lazy in this post, I mean simply acting on one's self-interests. Because that's what every party involved here is doing. It's important to note the difference between Python the language, and CPython. Using Python2 doesn't mean you're using some deprecated language, there's virtually no difference. That's what made the break such a shame honestly. Moving to Python3 with new code is easy. Most people just have few great reasons to now with their existing projects. People need to stop harassing the community and start harassing Guido van Rossum and the core dev team. Usually when people make a mistake, people fix it. GvR and his rogue band of developers have not corrected the Python3 mistake in any way. They've simply continued their mistake for so long, that people are becoming twisted thinking that it's EVERYONE ELSE who is at fault! Amazing really. CPython2 maintenance mode is just a way for the core dev team to maintain their grip around this whole debacle. If they had the guts to dump it in 2015 they would've lost complete control of the situation. It wasn't out of compassion as they say. Because they simply removed the incentive for a 3rd party to swoop in and takeover CPython2. Even that is backfiring now. People[0] are noticing how Python3 is turning into feature soup, which is never an improvement. Thus Python2's conservatism is starting to be seen as an asset. As far as CPython3 being under active development, so is PyPy and it's superior to CPython. The language doesn't change too much at this point. Python is Python for the most part. When the time comes for someone on 2 to move to 3, it will be a non-issue. They're not "losing out" today in any way by acting in their best interests using 2. Python3 has nothing that didn't already exist as a 3rd party library, nor does it have anything that doesn't exist in form of a backport. Thus technical innovation contained within is zero. Programmers aren't stupid. And I think the PSF folks think we are. Or just blatantly disregard the community that truly made Python what it is. The existing Python2 community is overtly disrespected when called "lazy" and all this type of harassment that goes on. I know I'm in the majority opinion because upvotes don't lie. I'm just a guy who likes "Python", the language. I can't blame you for not using it and honestly, what a mess Guido and his core dev team has created right? Python is my preference but I'm not held hostage by the PSF or Python3. I use Python2, Python3, Boo, PyPy. I don't hate Python3 and don't know anyone who does. It's just no slam dunk, and that's the core development team's fault- and they may lose their battle against Python fans as a result. I do highly dislike the groupthink about Python3, with a portion of the Python community on this topic. One more thing to add, is Python3 inevitable? No. It just fragmented the Python ecosystem. Nothing more. We all won't be on a single version again. GvR and his band of rogue developers should be ashamed of themselves. Again, change happens from the bottom up. Not top down. They failed the community and should abdicate their roles but I'm afraid their egos are too big. [0]http://learning-python.com/books/python-changes-2014-plus.html http://learning-python.com/books/python-changes-2014-plus.ht...