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If an alien makes it all the way to the moon with the tech to read the disc why wouldn't they hop on over to Earth where there would be much more data? When Car

by guelo 11y ago

If an alien makes it all the way to the moon with the tech to read the disc why wouldn't they hop on over to Earth where there would be much more data? When Carl Sagan did it it was much more evocative because Voyager will be traveling for thousands of years into deep space.

schwarrrtz 11y ago
The moon is much less dynamic than the earth, which could be covered in jungles or ice or something that makes it difficult to detect the (former) presence of intelligent life. IMO it's plausible that aliens might find artifacts on the moon that would then prompt a more in-depth exploration of the earth.
- jsmthrowaway 11y ago
  The zillion artificial satellites and other crap and debris orbiting the bigger, lusher body is probably a hint to said explorers, even with atmospheric orbital decay and perturbations over a long time scale. Earth orbit is our calling card for some time, even if we all die. Especially if they have decent midrange sensors to display nearby craft, Earth will look like a swarm of bees. Run any orbital debris simulator if you don't believe me. It's a mess up there.
  - deleted 11y ago
    [deleted]
  - schwarrrtz 11y ago
    That's a good point. Found an interesting article about this: > Orbits tend to decay over time, at a rate determined by the initial altitude. Anything above 2,000 km will take millennia to return to Earth, while satellites further down might take centuries or decades. http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/explainer/2005/04/where_satellites_go_when_they_die.html http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/explainer/20...
    - jsmthrowaway 11y ago
      There are faint, faint wisps of Earth's atmosphere a fair distance out, which is the big part of an orbit's challenge. Perturbations from other bodies nearby (notably the Moon), deformities of Earth's gravity, and even solar weather and tiniest fractions of gases are other contributors on a long-enough time scale. Micrometeorites would probably be the big risk over time for our orbital monument to humanity, and I would expect Kessler syndrome, as dramatized in Gravity, to actually happen over a long enough period without human existence. (Hell, even with us around it's a possibility, but not as depicted in the film. It'd be slower. Some say it's already underway.) Distant orbits might decay away from Earth given enough time and certain circumstances, oddly enough. A return to Earth is not guaranteed.
      - FreeFull 11y ago
        The Moon itself certainly is gradually moving away from Earth (and slowing down Earth's rotation in the process)
        jsmthrowaway 11y ago
        Indeed. That's one of those science nuggets I love telling people because it's universally accessible and blows everybody away. Suddenly makes galactic timescales and gravitation real for people. (Or they're just being nice to me...)
necessity 11y ago
It's a symbolic act just like the Voyager was.
Houshalter 11y ago
Well hypothetically if the Earth was destroyed by grey-goo or something, the disc would still be there. But the other answer is that it's much easier to find. Where would you put a ceramic copy of wikipedia on Earth to maximize it's probability of being found? Anywhere you put it could get destroyed, buried, or stolen. Who knows what will happen to it over the Eons. This disc will be on the surface of the moon forever. Anyone surveying the surface of the moon for unnatural objects will find it. Although that might take some advanced technology, it would be easier than surveying the Earth. And while they might find many artifacts on Earth, locating that single copy of wikipedia out of all the other junk we've left behind is a bit improbable. We haven't covered the moon with much junk.
- icebraining 11y ago
  This disc will be on the surface of the moon forever. Or until a meteorite hits it.
  - Florin_Andrei 11y ago
    It's true. The surface of the Moon is a lot less peaceful than it seems. If you process the image, you can tell the affected area from a single meteorite strike is much bigger than the crater itself: http://www.astrobin.com/full/220884/0/ http://www.astrobin.com/full/220884/0/
    - gcr 11y ago
      Has anyone compared the surface of the moon over time? We can count how many meteorites have hit the surface since we've been taking pictures of it, and we can also probably assess the actual damage they've caused.
      - Intermernet 11y ago
        NASA's Lunar Impact page is at http://www.nasa.gov/centers/marshall/news/lunar/#.VxmMxvl942w http://www.nasa.gov/centers/marshall/news/lunar/#.VxmMxvl942...
lucb1e 11y ago
> If an alien makes it all the way to the moon with the tech to read the disc why wouldn't they hop on over to Earth where there would be much more data? If you read the FAQ[1], it says: > [aliens] Probably not … but well, who knows? No, the Lunar challenge is mainly about pioneer spirit, curiosity, and visions for humanity. So, with the symbolic act of leaving a snapshot of human history on the surface of the Moon, we are thinking more about future generations than aliens. https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_to_the_Moon/FAQ https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_to_the_Moon/FAQ
jespersaron 11y ago
Surviving artifacts are not a very good and coherent source of information for future archeologists, alien or human. After all, we are still kind of unsure about construction methods of Egyptian pyramids, which are less than 5000 years old. And past civilizations at least seemed to have cared much more about longevity of their creations than we do, we can not even store our digital photos reliably over a decade without active replication. Without projects like this, future researchers will have to put the whole picture together using only plastic bottles and broken vinyl records :)
- therealidiot 11y ago
  I've started using M-DISC Blu-rays for my backups, which are supposed to last for quite a long time. I don't know how long they will actually last in real-world conditions, but I'm hoping its long enough that if I ever need them, they'll still work. As for preserving things for future generations, I don't know of any good storage techniques. The problem with M-DISCs and other mad-high-density digital storage is that the readers will (most likely) be completely unavailable long before the all of the discs have degraded. Perhaps we should engrave our data in 2D barcodes, alongside some readable instructions describing how the data can be decoded... Wouldn't have anywhere near the density of optical, magnetic or flash storage though. The whole situation does "worry" me a little, I agree entirely about future researchers not having much to go on. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M-DISC https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M-DISC

by guelo 11y ago

schwarrrtz 11y ago

The moon is much less dynamic than the earth, which could be covered in jungles or ice or something that makes it difficult to detect the (former) presence of intelligent life. IMO it's plausible that aliens might find artifacts on the moon that would then prompt a more in-depth exploration of the earth.

jsmthrowaway 11y ago
The zillion artificial satellites and other crap and debris orbiting the bigger, lusher body is probably a hint to said explorers, even with atmospheric orbital decay and perturbations over a long time scale. Earth orbit is our calling card for some time, even if we all die. Especially if they have decent midrange sensors to display nearby craft, Earth will look like a swarm of bees. Run any orbital debris simulator if you don't believe me. It's a mess up there.
- deleted 11y ago
  [deleted]
- schwarrrtz 11y ago
  That's a good point. Found an interesting article about this: > Orbits tend to decay over time, at a rate determined by the initial altitude. Anything above 2,000 km will take millennia to return to Earth, while satellites further down might take centuries or decades. http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/explainer/2005/04/where_satellites_go_when_they_die.html http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/explainer/20...
  - jsmthrowaway 11y ago
    There are faint, faint wisps of Earth's atmosphere a fair distance out, which is the big part of an orbit's challenge. Perturbations from other bodies nearby (notably the Moon), deformities of Earth's gravity, and even solar weather and tiniest fractions of gases are other contributors on a long-enough time scale. Micrometeorites would probably be the big risk over time for our orbital monument to humanity, and I would expect Kessler syndrome, as dramatized in Gravity, to actually happen over a long enough period without human existence. (Hell, even with us around it's a possibility, but not as depicted in the film. It'd be slower. Some say it's already underway.) Distant orbits might decay away from Earth given enough time and certain circumstances, oddly enough. A return to Earth is not guaranteed.
    - FreeFull 11y ago
      The Moon itself certainly is gradually moving away from Earth (and slowing down Earth's rotation in the process)
      - jsmthrowaway 11y ago
        Indeed. That's one of those science nuggets I love telling people because it's universally accessible and blows everybody away. Suddenly makes galactic timescales and gravitation real for people. (Or they're just being nice to me...)

necessity 11y ago

It's a symbolic act just like the Voyager was.

Houshalter 11y ago

Well hypothetically if the Earth was destroyed by grey-goo or something, the disc would still be there. But the other answer is that it's much easier to find. Where would you put a ceramic copy of wikipedia on Earth to maximize it's probability of being found? Anywhere you put it could get destroyed, buried, or stolen. Who knows what will happen to it over the Eons. This disc will be on the surface of the moon forever. Anyone surveying the surface of the moon for unnatural objects will find it. Although that might take some advanced technology, it would be easier than surveying the Earth. And while they might find many artifacts on Earth, locating that single copy of wikipedia out of all the other junk we've left behind is a bit improbable. We haven't covered the moon with much junk.

icebraining 11y ago
This disc will be on the surface of the moon forever. Or until a meteorite hits it.
- Florin_Andrei 11y ago
  It's true. The surface of the Moon is a lot less peaceful than it seems. If you process the image, you can tell the affected area from a single meteorite strike is much bigger than the crater itself: http://www.astrobin.com/full/220884/0/ http://www.astrobin.com/full/220884/0/
  - gcr 11y ago
    Has anyone compared the surface of the moon over time? We can count how many meteorites have hit the surface since we've been taking pictures of it, and we can also probably assess the actual damage they've caused.
    - Intermernet 11y ago
      NASA's Lunar Impact page is at http://www.nasa.gov/centers/marshall/news/lunar/#.VxmMxvl942w http://www.nasa.gov/centers/marshall/news/lunar/#.VxmMxvl942...

lucb1e 11y ago

> If an alien makes it all the way to the moon with the tech to read the disc why wouldn't they hop on over to Earth where there would be much more data? If you read the FAQ[1], it says: > [aliens] Probably not … but well, who knows? No, the Lunar challenge is mainly about pioneer spirit, curiosity, and visions for humanity. So, with the symbolic act of leaving a snapshot of human history on the surface of the Moon, we are thinking more about future generations than aliens. https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_to_the_Moon/FAQ https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_to_the_Moon/FAQ

jespersaron 11y ago

Surviving artifacts are not a very good and coherent source of information for future archeologists, alien or human. After all, we are still kind of unsure about construction methods of Egyptian pyramids, which are less than 5000 years old. And past civilizations at least seemed to have cared much more about longevity of their creations than we do, we can not even store our digital photos reliably over a decade without active replication. Without projects like this, future researchers will have to put the whole picture together using only plastic bottles and broken vinyl records :)

therealidiot 11y ago
I've started using M-DISC Blu-rays for my backups, which are supposed to last for quite a long time. I don't know how long they will actually last in real-world conditions, but I'm hoping its long enough that if I ever need them, they'll still work. As for preserving things for future generations, I don't know of any good storage techniques. The problem with M-DISCs and other mad-high-density digital storage is that the readers will (most likely) be completely unavailable long before the all of the discs have degraded. Perhaps we should engrave our data in 2D barcodes, alongside some readable instructions describing how the data can be decoded... Wouldn't have anywhere near the density of optical, magnetic or flash storage though. The whole situation does "worry" me a little, I agree entirely about future researchers not having much to go on. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M-DISC https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M-DISC