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This whole saga has been uncomfortable from the beginning--and now I'm cringing harder ever than ever. Not because I disagree with much of what Amilia has writt

This whole saga has been uncomfortable from the beginning--and now I'm cringing harder ever than ever. Not because I disagree with much of what Amilia has written, but just because it's painful to be, in some way, a witness to the rift that this piece makes evident. In any case, Amilia is right to highlight this quote: > Why do young white males tend to be the ones who pick up computers, teach themselves to code, start businesses in their basements with their friends and get rich? It’s an obvious opportunity to everybody isn’t it? If you are a different race, gender, or religion… what’s your excuse? I know of very very few successful bootstrapped tech companies founded by women or blacks. This, folks, is a racial (and gender) pathology claim. Unless we interpret Alex as inquiring about the social circumstances that prevent women and 'blacks' from seizing these 'opportunities' (and I don't see how that's a plausible interpretation here), then what Alex is suggesting is that there is something wrong with women and black people, a physiological symptom of their gender or race, that prevents them from seeing or taking these opportunities when presented with them. I find that, if you pay attention, you also see this way of thinking at work behind the scenes in more reasonable-sounding claims about racial and gender politics. Sometimes its overt, but more often its buried in points about, e.g., the corroded norms of "black communities."

actionwords 11y ago
asians are massivaley over represented in tech. europeans are actually under represented. But let's not let facts get in the way of argumentation shall we?
dvdcxn 11y ago
>Why do young white males tend to be the ones who pick up computers, teach themselves to code, start businesses in their basements with their friends and get rich? It’s an obvious opportunity to everybody isn’t it? If you are a different race, gender, or religion… what’s your excuse? I know of very very few successful bootstrapped tech companies founded by women or blacks. I've always wondered if the answer to this was due to the culture and class demographics. The Current crop of tech leaders came from the era where middle class boys were bought computers by their parents as it was seen as a thing for boys to be into and not girls (I think this stereotype is still prevalent but far less powerful now). Computers just were not affordable to working class folks back then. Considering the poverty most minorities families faced then and still do now, it's sadly the case that they couldn't afford computers. I expect (and hope) that in the next 10 years we'll see the distribution of tech leaders become naturally more diverse. Not because of any activist drive but simply because these kids are much more likely to have access to the tools they were denied in the past.
- protomyth 11y ago
  > I expect (and hope) that in the next 10 years we'll see the distribution of tech leaders to become more diverse. Not because of any activist drive but simply because these kids are much more likely to have access to the tools they were denied in the past. I don't see much hope of that as the fundamental problem hasn't changed. Lack of STEM training / degrees in pre-K / elementary school teachers and a gender problem worse than tech. We've had a lot of debates about the availability of programmable computers to lower incomes in a lot of threads.
- cookiecaper 11y ago
  >I've always wondered if the answer to this was due to the culture and class demographics. The answer is simple. Women are naturally inclined toward social fields. There are few women who want to do something highly technical and not people-oriented. Men do not have the same strong social inclination. The physiological differences between male and female affect their psychology as well as their superficial appearances; let's not kid ourselves. These are tools called "generalizations", which means they're not universally applicable, but they are helpful for understanding the world.
  - JoeAltmaier 11y ago
    Hasn't that been demonstrated false? Women (girls) start out just as interested in everything including technology. They are socialized away from math and science. Any physiological bias is in the noise.
    - cookiecaper 11y ago
      a) it's hard enough to demonstrably prove anything in real sciences, data from social sciences rarely reflects anything other than the author's bias. One's ability to contrive a desired result with opaque language should not be used as evidence contrary to the easily observed, near universal reality. Don't let someone else's agenda send you into denial. b) a loss of interest as a person matures does not necessarily imply that loss is artificial. That unique psychology may emerge naturally over the developmental / maturation process, just as some physical features emerge.
jankens 11y ago
> This, folks, is a racial (and gender) pathology claim. Could it not also/instead be a social upbringing thing instead? If the media I see regarding African Americans is indicative to their culture, we have no further to look than BET and the cornucopia of movies like "Hot Tub Time Machine", "Black Coffee", and "Dear White People". The current african american culture appears broken. Single parent households are everywhere, anti-intellectualism is paramount... Book learning is "white people stuff". It's always a pleasant shock to meet those from the African nations over here. They're kind, intelligent, and well spoken. It's especially funny/sad when american blacks try to communicate with them, and get distant and nasty when they realize they are from Africa. Women, on the other hand, are trained from elementary school that they are good at "english, social studies, and soft sciences". Boys do the hard stuff. That is little to do with capability, but bad training from a scholastic age.
- pdabbadabba 11y ago
  There's a form of this point that could be correct--but the way you've framed it is pretty problematic. 1. Your examples of "Black Culture" just reflect the biases of the people who select examples of "Black Culture" for white people (and I'm pretty sure Hot Tub Time Machine, at least, is firmly a product of White Culture--did it have a single black writer?). I think you'd be better off looking at Blackish, Kendrick Lamar, Beyonce, and ahem Barack Obama. 2. When you set up an argument like this, I suggest you also explain why you think "Black Culture" is "broken." Because its easy to read what you've written as bottoming out in the claim that black people have created a broken culture. Why? Well there must be something wrong with black people! Lots of people do seem to make this argument (accidentally, of course--its often an attempt to make a racist attitude sound socially acceptable), and I doubt you'd want to be associated with them.
  - drumdance 11y ago
    One can point out that a culture is broken without blaming the people in it. Redneck culture is broken too, not least because it's very racist. (I grew up surrounded by rednecks, including family members. The rednecks in my family are also the ones with the most problems: low income, drug problems etc.)
fweespee_ch 11y ago
> This whole saga has been uncomfortable from the beginning--and now I'm cringing harder ever than ever. Not because I disagree with much of what Amilia has written, but just because it's painful to be, in some way, a witness to the rift that this piece makes evident. Yeah. I honestly don't care so much about the idiot father's claims but rather just the fact we are witnessing a rather painfully public collapse of a family.
- facepalm 11y ago
  She mentions she hasn't been near her father for years, so presumably the collapse already happened long ago. Still, she is probably not unbiased.
  - Overtonwindow 11y ago
    I felt that way too. I think she has a lot of issues to work through regarding her father, and it may be a lot of that which are fueling her rage. Not saying her arguments are wrong, but I am concerned about her impartiality.
imgabe 11y ago
I think, for better or worse, people choose role models who are like them. If you're a white male, your role models end up being white males. If you're a black female, you probably look up to other black females. Not exclusively or consciously, but it's probably the first place you look. "Who should I be like?" "Well, maybe that person who's already a little like me except older and more successful." When you combine that with the historical situations that people in positions of power have been white males, you have a much broader variety of role models for white males than for anyone else. That's not to say people can't or shouldn't choose role models who are a different race or gender than they are, just that it might not naturally be their first instinct.
- Ntrails 11y ago
  Your first role models are pretty much always going to be the people you have contact with from a young age. So we start with your parents, Extended family and Kindergarten teachers. Yes, we pick up other role models in our teens, but I think a lot of the "damage" is done by then. The expected roles have started to be processed and internalised.
  - maxerickson 11y ago
    You've missed peers. They are likely more influential than teachers. (That they aren't "further along" doesn't mean that their behaviors and attitudes will not be adopted)
  - ssmoot 11y ago
    She makes the exact argument supporting the parent though. That having people who look like her was incredibly important to her decision going into tech. Which is a real problem IMO. I didn't go to school. Most of the programmers I know didn't. So maybe it's part of that culture. But I didn't have much in the way of peers when I started. It was just the most promising career option I had. But the people I looked up to in tech weren't much like me other than their (mostly) maleness. And that wasn't a factor (for me). Martin Fowler, Uncle Bob, Matz, Roy Osherove, Jon Lam, Jamie Cansdale. They were just names on a page to me. Never met any of them. But I respected their abilities and what they wrote. I certainly never had a mentor (though my father in law did get me my first real tech job, subcontracting for minimum wage, busting out the less fun HTML side of things for his work for a few months). I'm incredibly grateful to him, but that wasn't going to build a real career. So I picked up a dozen or so books, read them front-to-back, and a year later was a c# developer. I feel like you have to want it for yourself. I could be totally wrong, and I have no idea how you'd measure such a thing, but for the non-college crowd at least, I've got to think stories more similar to my own are much more common than stories where someone found a group of people who looked like them they could consider mentors.
facepalm 11y ago
The error here is actually assuming that learning to code is an obvious opportunity. Many people, especially women, consider other things more worthwhile in life, and they have other options. And we only tend to notice the success stories, too, not the accounts of coders toiling away in windowless basements.
- deleted 11y ago
  [deleted]

actionwords 11y ago

asians are massivaley over represented in tech. europeans are actually under represented. But let's not let facts get in the way of argumentation shall we?

dvdcxn 11y ago

>Why do young white males tend to be the ones who pick up computers, teach themselves to code, start businesses in their basements with their friends and get rich? It’s an obvious opportunity to everybody isn’t it? If you are a different race, gender, or religion… what’s your excuse? I know of very very few successful bootstrapped tech companies founded by women or blacks. I've always wondered if the answer to this was due to the culture and class demographics. The Current crop of tech leaders came from the era where middle class boys were bought computers by their parents as it was seen as a thing for boys to be into and not girls (I think this stereotype is still prevalent but far less powerful now). Computers just were not affordable to working class folks back then. Considering the poverty most minorities families faced then and still do now, it's sadly the case that they couldn't afford computers. I expect (and hope) that in the next 10 years we'll see the distribution of tech leaders become naturally more diverse. Not because of any activist drive but simply because these kids are much more likely to have access to the tools they were denied in the past.

protomyth 11y ago
> I expect (and hope) that in the next 10 years we'll see the distribution of tech leaders to become more diverse. Not because of any activist drive but simply because these kids are much more likely to have access to the tools they were denied in the past. I don't see much hope of that as the fundamental problem hasn't changed. Lack of STEM training / degrees in pre-K / elementary school teachers and a gender problem worse than tech. We've had a lot of debates about the availability of programmable computers to lower incomes in a lot of threads.
cookiecaper 11y ago
>I've always wondered if the answer to this was due to the culture and class demographics. The answer is simple. Women are naturally inclined toward social fields. There are few women who want to do something highly technical and not people-oriented. Men do not have the same strong social inclination. The physiological differences between male and female affect their psychology as well as their superficial appearances; let's not kid ourselves. These are tools called "generalizations", which means they're not universally applicable, but they are helpful for understanding the world.
- JoeAltmaier 11y ago
  Hasn't that been demonstrated false? Women (girls) start out just as interested in everything including technology. They are socialized away from math and science. Any physiological bias is in the noise.
  - cookiecaper 11y ago
    a) it's hard enough to demonstrably prove anything in real sciences, data from social sciences rarely reflects anything other than the author's bias. One's ability to contrive a desired result with opaque language should not be used as evidence contrary to the easily observed, near universal reality. Don't let someone else's agenda send you into denial. b) a loss of interest as a person matures does not necessarily imply that loss is artificial. That unique psychology may emerge naturally over the developmental / maturation process, just as some physical features emerge.

jankens 11y ago

> This, folks, is a racial (and gender) pathology claim. Could it not also/instead be a social upbringing thing instead? If the media I see regarding African Americans is indicative to their culture, we have no further to look than BET and the cornucopia of movies like "Hot Tub Time Machine", "Black Coffee", and "Dear White People". The current african american culture appears broken. Single parent households are everywhere, anti-intellectualism is paramount... Book learning is "white people stuff". It's always a pleasant shock to meet those from the African nations over here. They're kind, intelligent, and well spoken. It's especially funny/sad when american blacks try to communicate with them, and get distant and nasty when they realize they are from Africa. Women, on the other hand, are trained from elementary school that they are good at "english, social studies, and soft sciences". Boys do the hard stuff. That is little to do with capability, but bad training from a scholastic age.

pdabbadabba 11y ago
There's a form of this point that could be correct--but the way you've framed it is pretty problematic. 1. Your examples of "Black Culture" just reflect the biases of the people who select examples of "Black Culture" for white people (and I'm pretty sure Hot Tub Time Machine, at least, is firmly a product of White Culture--did it have a single black writer?). I think you'd be better off looking at Blackish, Kendrick Lamar, Beyonce, and ahem Barack Obama. 2. When you set up an argument like this, I suggest you also explain why you think "Black Culture" is "broken." Because its easy to read what you've written as bottoming out in the claim that black people have created a broken culture. Why? Well there must be something wrong with black people! Lots of people do seem to make this argument (accidentally, of course--its often an attempt to make a racist attitude sound socially acceptable), and I doubt you'd want to be associated with them.
- drumdance 11y ago
  One can point out that a culture is broken without blaming the people in it. Redneck culture is broken too, not least because it's very racist. (I grew up surrounded by rednecks, including family members. The rednecks in my family are also the ones with the most problems: low income, drug problems etc.)

fweespee_ch 11y ago

> This whole saga has been uncomfortable from the beginning--and now I'm cringing harder ever than ever. Not because I disagree with much of what Amilia has written, but just because it's painful to be, in some way, a witness to the rift that this piece makes evident. Yeah. I honestly don't care so much about the idiot father's claims but rather just the fact we are witnessing a rather painfully public collapse of a family.

facepalm 11y ago
She mentions she hasn't been near her father for years, so presumably the collapse already happened long ago. Still, she is probably not unbiased.
- Overtonwindow 11y ago
  I felt that way too. I think she has a lot of issues to work through regarding her father, and it may be a lot of that which are fueling her rage. Not saying her arguments are wrong, but I am concerned about her impartiality.

imgabe 11y ago

I think, for better or worse, people choose role models who are like them. If you're a white male, your role models end up being white males. If you're a black female, you probably look up to other black females. Not exclusively or consciously, but it's probably the first place you look. "Who should I be like?" "Well, maybe that person who's already a little like me except older and more successful." When you combine that with the historical situations that people in positions of power have been white males, you have a much broader variety of role models for white males than for anyone else. That's not to say people can't or shouldn't choose role models who are a different race or gender than they are, just that it might not naturally be their first instinct.

Ntrails 11y ago
Your first role models are pretty much always going to be the people you have contact with from a young age. So we start with your parents, Extended family and Kindergarten teachers. Yes, we pick up other role models in our teens, but I think a lot of the "damage" is done by then. The expected roles have started to be processed and internalised.
- maxerickson 11y ago
  You've missed peers. They are likely more influential than teachers. (That they aren't "further along" doesn't mean that their behaviors and attitudes will not be adopted)
- ssmoot 11y ago
  She makes the exact argument supporting the parent though. That having people who look like her was incredibly important to her decision going into tech. Which is a real problem IMO. I didn't go to school. Most of the programmers I know didn't. So maybe it's part of that culture. But I didn't have much in the way of peers when I started. It was just the most promising career option I had. But the people I looked up to in tech weren't much like me other than their (mostly) maleness. And that wasn't a factor (for me). Martin Fowler, Uncle Bob, Matz, Roy Osherove, Jon Lam, Jamie Cansdale. They were just names on a page to me. Never met any of them. But I respected their abilities and what they wrote. I certainly never had a mentor (though my father in law did get me my first real tech job, subcontracting for minimum wage, busting out the less fun HTML side of things for his work for a few months). I'm incredibly grateful to him, but that wasn't going to build a real career. So I picked up a dozen or so books, read them front-to-back, and a year later was a c# developer. I feel like you have to want it for yourself. I could be totally wrong, and I have no idea how you'd measure such a thing, but for the non-college crowd at least, I've got to think stories more similar to my own are much more common than stories where someone found a group of people who looked like them they could consider mentors.

facepalm 11y ago

The error here is actually assuming that learning to code is an obvious opportunity. Many people, especially women, consider other things more worthwhile in life, and they have other options. And we only tend to notice the success stories, too, not the accounts of coders toiling away in windowless basements.

deleted 11y ago
[deleted]