3 ms·

But then, the simple fact that you're using a SIM card bought from a known SIM-trafficking criminal makes you worthy of interest. The phone being instrumental i

by fab13n 10y ago

But then, the simple fact that you're using a SIM card bought from a known SIM-trafficking criminal makes you worthy of interest. The phone being instrumental in a first crime, it'll be easy to get a wire warrant and listen for the subsequent crimes you'll commit by using it. Most criminals aren't masterminds (and the few who are, are genrelly designed with other names, such as "politicians"); if you make it difficult to procure a phone, and a weapon, and to hide on the net, etc., many of them won't be able to assemble everything they need to commit serious crimes without getting caught. One of the reasons why gun homicides are so much less prevalent in Europe is that if a minority of hardcore, resourceful criminals can find guns through black markets, most of the random losers can't: too complicated, too expansive, some planning-ahead required... And the many losers are the ones causing the bulk of criminality, not the few hardcore criminals.

phn 10y ago
The comparison with guns doesn't really hold up. Guns are not a fundamental piece or even really necessary, when living in a modern society. A SIM card on the other hand, is pretty darn convenient for the general population.
- fab13n 10y ago
  The comparison was only between illegal guns and illegal SIM cards. Very few people have untraceable SIM cards, nor consider that they need one. Whether they're right to belive they don't need one, that's an interesting but different question!
pmarreck 10y ago
> But then, the simple fact that you're using a SIM card bought from a known SIM-trafficking criminal makes you worthy of interest. This is the same circular non-logic that permits officers to arrest you merely for resisting arrest. The state decides to make wearing blue illegal; I continue to because I am a strong "blue believer"; thus, merely by insisting on wearing blue, I MUST hang with other law-non-abiders (aka "criminals") and thus become a "person of interest" to law enforcement for no other reason than sticking to principles. Possessing an anonymous SIM card is no sole indicator that you are up to no good. Assuming so is problematic due to a good privacy argument by Martin Fowler: http://martinfowler.com/articles/bothersome-privacy.html http://martinfowler.com/articles/bothersome-privacy.html
- fab13n 10y ago
  I'm not arguing that it's a very dangerous slope for public liberties. I believe the checks and balances against executive branches are increasingly broken in most western democracies, and that robust online privacy pushes in the very desirable direction of re-establishing a bit of that balance. I'm really concerned that most citizens don't see this as a major voting issue. However, this was neither the OP's point, nor what I was answering too. He described the measure as ineffective, because most criminals would be able and willing to acquire an illegal SIM before using a phone. I believe this to be false and I explained why. Being dangerous for liberties is not the same as being effective from police forces' PoV; actually, these two qualities are negatively correlated most of the time.
  - pmarreck 10y ago
    Ah, thank you for the clarification
saiya-jin 10y ago
You sir have apparently no idea how easy is to obtain guns in european underworld, and I don't mean Ukraine or Albania. Want to buy AK-47 with ammo in Paris? Just go to shady suburbs, if you know where to go/right people it's piece of cake for few hundred euros (not living there myself, but I have a colleague who comes from there and this is his consistent description).
- fab13n 10y ago
  Yet empirically, only a tiny, tiny fraction of crimes committed in France are committed with AK-47s. Most likely, non-exclusive explanations: * you underestimate the difficulty of acquiring such a weapon without being caught nor robbed; * you overestimate the abilities of most criminals. Incidentally, I happen to have spent about half of my life in Paris and its suburbs. I believe it gives me at least as much legitimacy as having watched a couple of sensationalist reports on French TV stations. Which, moreover, I have also watched :-)
CaptSpify 10y ago
> But then, the simple fact that you're using a SIM card bought from a known SIM-trafficking criminal makes you worthy of interest. Do you think someone who bought a sim-card from someone else is going to "register" that card with authorities? "Hey, I just bought this card, so you can't follow me. Where do I update my info?"
- fab13n 10y ago
  No, but I think most of those who make an habit of registering SIM cards on behalf of others will be known pretty fast. Once you know a SIM card is suspect, because it's been registered by a known addict and trafficker, you can put a wire on it even if you don't know who holds the phone. With this plus BTS-based geolocation, your chances of catching typical, opsec-illiterate criminals are vastly improved.

by fab13n 10y ago

phn 10y ago

The comparison with guns doesn't really hold up. Guns are not a fundamental piece or even really necessary, when living in a modern society. A SIM card on the other hand, is pretty darn convenient for the general population.

fab13n 10y ago
The comparison was only between illegal guns and illegal SIM cards. Very few people have untraceable SIM cards, nor consider that they need one. Whether they're right to belive they don't need one, that's an interesting but different question!

pmarreck 10y ago

> But then, the simple fact that you're using a SIM card bought from a known SIM-trafficking criminal makes you worthy of interest. This is the same circular non-logic that permits officers to arrest you merely for resisting arrest. The state decides to make wearing blue illegal; I continue to because I am a strong "blue believer"; thus, merely by insisting on wearing blue, I MUST hang with other law-non-abiders (aka "criminals") and thus become a "person of interest" to law enforcement for no other reason than sticking to principles. Possessing an anonymous SIM card is no sole indicator that you are up to no good. Assuming so is problematic due to a good privacy argument by Martin Fowler: http://martinfowler.com/articles/bothersome-privacy.html http://martinfowler.com/articles/bothersome-privacy.html

fab13n 10y ago
I'm not arguing that it's a very dangerous slope for public liberties. I believe the checks and balances against executive branches are increasingly broken in most western democracies, and that robust online privacy pushes in the very desirable direction of re-establishing a bit of that balance. I'm really concerned that most citizens don't see this as a major voting issue. However, this was neither the OP's point, nor what I was answering too. He described the measure as ineffective, because most criminals would be able and willing to acquire an illegal SIM before using a phone. I believe this to be false and I explained why. Being dangerous for liberties is not the same as being effective from police forces' PoV; actually, these two qualities are negatively correlated most of the time.
- pmarreck 10y ago
  Ah, thank you for the clarification

saiya-jin 10y ago

You sir have apparently no idea how easy is to obtain guns in european underworld, and I don't mean Ukraine or Albania. Want to buy AK-47 with ammo in Paris? Just go to shady suburbs, if you know where to go/right people it's piece of cake for few hundred euros (not living there myself, but I have a colleague who comes from there and this is his consistent description).

fab13n 10y ago
Yet empirically, only a tiny, tiny fraction of crimes committed in France are committed with AK-47s. Most likely, non-exclusive explanations: * you underestimate the difficulty of acquiring such a weapon without being caught nor robbed; * you overestimate the abilities of most criminals. Incidentally, I happen to have spent about half of my life in Paris and its suburbs. I believe it gives me at least as much legitimacy as having watched a couple of sensationalist reports on French TV stations. Which, moreover, I have also watched :-)

CaptSpify 10y ago

> But then, the simple fact that you're using a SIM card bought from a known SIM-trafficking criminal makes you worthy of interest. Do you think someone who bought a sim-card from someone else is going to "register" that card with authorities? "Hey, I just bought this card, so you can't follow me. Where do I update my info?"

fab13n 10y ago
No, but I think most of those who make an habit of registering SIM cards on behalf of others will be known pretty fast. Once you know a SIM card is suspect, because it's been registered by a known addict and trafficker, you can put a wire on it even if you don't know who holds the phone. With this plus BTS-based geolocation, your chances of catching typical, opsec-illiterate criminals are vastly improved.