7 ms·

There's a lot of comments in this thread throwing up their hands about this. That's the attitude that will let this sort of thing happen. Bills are published

by PJDK 10y ago

There's a lot of comments in this thread throwing up their hands about this. That's the attitude that will let this sort of thing happen. Bills are published like this well ahead of them even being debated so that interested parties can comment. There's a major faction within the Conservative party that is pro privacy (e.g. http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/7450627.stm http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/7450627.stm), and it's also pro business. This is anti privacy and anti business. It's a winnable fight, but not if you give up at the first suggestion of a thing you don't like. Write to MPs, say "As CEO of awesome corp I would seriously consider relocating to Berlin". That sort of thing will get attention.

nunobrito 10y ago
Agreed. Need to exist enough voices to keep the balance.
- azazqadir 10y ago
  Didn't expect UK to present a bill like this one. Russia or China on the other hand would have made some sense.
  - nunobrito 10y ago
    In both Russia and China you find more "synergy" between private companies and state. There wouldn't be need for pass legislation because a company refusing to cooperate would be promptly "educated". In the western countries there is less synergy and more dispute. So they need to legislate for the law abiding organizations to become "outlawed" at some point for doing what is the ethically correct thing to do.
TheOtherHobbes 10y ago
The big guns are already doing it. It won't help, because the Home Office is run by paranoid authoritarians and crazies, and they keep trying to pull crap like this no matter who is in power. The critical question is just how likely is it that the gov will prosecute Apple, Google, or FB for not following the rules. "Not very", I'd guess. How likely is the gov to prosecute Tiny Corp Ltd? "8.1 Small companies (with under 10,000 users) will not be obligated to provide a permanent interception capability, although they may be obligated to give effect to a warrant." But look at this: "8.17 A person to whom a technical capability notice is given is under a duty to comply with the notice. In respect of a technical capability notice to give effect to equipment interference or bulk acquisition warrants, the duty to comply with a technical capability notice is enforceable against a person in the UK by civil proceedings by the Secretary of State. The duty to comply with a technical capability notice to give effect to interception warrants and CD authorisations is enforceable against a person in the UK and a person outside the UK by civil proceedings by the Secretary of State." That's civil proceedings, not criminal proceedings. So basically the SoS can sue, but not jail anyone. It's all quite confused, and fundamentally fails to understand the differences between targeted surveillance, bulk surveillance, end-to-end encryption, commercial encryption for (e.g.) secure banking, open source VPNs, and so on. If you pull apart the language, the mental model is of someone who thinks encryption is like an envelope around a letter. So if you demand a de-enveloping tool from the people who make and sell envelopes you've done your job. There's a bit more to it, but the legal language doesn't have any insight into that.
- kardos 10y ago
  > It won't help, because the Home Office is run by paranoid authoritarians and crazies, and they keep trying to pull crap like this no matter who is in power. And forever pushing back is the price of freedom. OP is right, you have to keep telling them no.
  - djodheihdjd 10y ago
    The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants. ~~~ It's best to include the full sticker price.
secfirstmd 10y ago
People of Ireland speaking here: -Not a massive fan of the British surveillance state? -Want to stay in the EU? -Enjoy low corporate tax rate of 12.5%? -Enjoy friendly, well educated, English speaking, Pro-American people, good beer, decent music, nice quality of life, low crime and safe green natural environment? -Want (relatively incompetent) pro-business government to butt out of your companies launch plans? Invest in Ireland -> http://www.idaireland.com http://www.idaireland.com This has been a public service announcement from the country next door. #irelandlovesyou :)
- jsingleton 10y ago
  I sometimes wonder why Google, Microsoft, Amazon, Facebook etc. don't have data centres in the UK but many are in Ireland.
  - secfirstmd 10y ago
    Most likely cost. But I'm sure it has factored in. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microsoft_Corporation_v._United_States_of_America https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microsoft_Corporation_v._Unite...
  - joeyspn 10y ago
    Because they love the Double Irish Dutch Sandwich?
    - secfirstmd 10y ago
      Cafes in the Dublin "Silicon Docks" really should sell that at lunchtime. It sounds tastey.
  - sweezyjeezy 10y ago
    Taxes. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Double_Irish_arrangement https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Double_Irish_arrangement
- flashm 10y ago
  Yes please, where can I sign up? Seriously though, I live in Berkshire, and am looking for decent places to move to. The grass is definitely always greener! :) I have even begun to look at some roles in SF.
jsingleton 10y ago
I wonder how different things would be if Davis had won the Conservative party leadership. Probably as hard to tell as what might have happened if Gore had kept his presidential win. Edit: Totally agree that if you want to help fight this then write to your MP and consider donating towards a publicity campaign by https://www.dontspyonus.org.uk https://www.dontspyonus.org.uk.
- secfirstmd 10y ago
  I used to work in Westminster and Davis was one of the only Conservatives who was pro-privacy. Partly because he a) Had a military background so wasn't intimidated by people in uniform recommending things to him. He was aware as anyone with military service of the crap that the military often push. b)He had spent time over seeing parts of the intelligence budget, so was very sceptical of the things they were pushing and their effectiveness.

by PJDK 10y ago

nunobrito 10y ago

Agreed. Need to exist enough voices to keep the balance.

azazqadir 10y ago
Didn't expect UK to present a bill like this one. Russia or China on the other hand would have made some sense.
- nunobrito 10y ago
  In both Russia and China you find more "synergy" between private companies and state. There wouldn't be need for pass legislation because a company refusing to cooperate would be promptly "educated". In the western countries there is less synergy and more dispute. So they need to legislate for the law abiding organizations to become "outlawed" at some point for doing what is the ethically correct thing to do.

TheOtherHobbes 10y ago

The big guns are already doing it. It won't help, because the Home Office is run by paranoid authoritarians and crazies, and they keep trying to pull crap like this no matter who is in power. The critical question is just how likely is it that the gov will prosecute Apple, Google, or FB for not following the rules. "Not very", I'd guess. How likely is the gov to prosecute Tiny Corp Ltd? "8.1 Small companies (with under 10,000 users) will not be obligated to provide a permanent interception capability, although they may be obligated to give effect to a warrant." But look at this: "8.17 A person to whom a technical capability notice is given is under a duty to comply with the notice. In respect of a technical capability notice to give effect to equipment interference or bulk acquisition warrants, the duty to comply with a technical capability notice is enforceable against a person in the UK by civil proceedings by the Secretary of State. The duty to comply with a technical capability notice to give effect to interception warrants and CD authorisations is enforceable against a person in the UK and a person outside the UK by civil proceedings by the Secretary of State." That's civil proceedings, not criminal proceedings. So basically the SoS can sue, but not jail anyone. It's all quite confused, and fundamentally fails to understand the differences between targeted surveillance, bulk surveillance, end-to-end encryption, commercial encryption for (e.g.) secure banking, open source VPNs, and so on. If you pull apart the language, the mental model is of someone who thinks encryption is like an envelope around a letter. So if you demand a de-enveloping tool from the people who make and sell envelopes you've done your job. There's a bit more to it, but the legal language doesn't have any insight into that.

kardos 10y ago
> It won't help, because the Home Office is run by paranoid authoritarians and crazies, and they keep trying to pull crap like this no matter who is in power. And forever pushing back is the price of freedom. OP is right, you have to keep telling them no.
- djodheihdjd 10y ago
  The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants. ~~~ It's best to include the full sticker price.

secfirstmd 10y ago

People of Ireland speaking here: -Not a massive fan of the British surveillance state? -Want to stay in the EU? -Enjoy low corporate tax rate of 12.5%? -Enjoy friendly, well educated, English speaking, Pro-American people, good beer, decent music, nice quality of life, low crime and safe green natural environment? -Want (relatively incompetent) pro-business government to butt out of your companies launch plans? Invest in Ireland -> http://www.idaireland.com http://www.idaireland.com This has been a public service announcement from the country next door. #irelandlovesyou :)

jsingleton 10y ago
I sometimes wonder why Google, Microsoft, Amazon, Facebook etc. don't have data centres in the UK but many are in Ireland.
- secfirstmd 10y ago
  Most likely cost. But I'm sure it has factored in. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microsoft_Corporation_v._United_States_of_America https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microsoft_Corporation_v._Unite...
- joeyspn 10y ago
  Because they love the Double Irish Dutch Sandwich?
  - secfirstmd 10y ago
    Cafes in the Dublin "Silicon Docks" really should sell that at lunchtime. It sounds tastey.
- sweezyjeezy 10y ago
  Taxes. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Double_Irish_arrangement https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Double_Irish_arrangement
flashm 10y ago
Yes please, where can I sign up? Seriously though, I live in Berkshire, and am looking for decent places to move to. The grass is definitely always greener! :) I have even begun to look at some roles in SF.

jsingleton 10y ago

I wonder how different things would be if Davis had won the Conservative party leadership. Probably as hard to tell as what might have happened if Gore had kept his presidential win. Edit: Totally agree that if you want to help fight this then write to your MP and consider donating towards a publicity campaign by https://www.dontspyonus.org.uk https://www.dontspyonus.org.uk.

secfirstmd 10y ago
I used to work in Westminster and Davis was one of the only Conservatives who was pro-privacy. Partly because he a) Had a military background so wasn't intimidated by people in uniform recommending things to him. He was aware as anyone with military service of the crap that the military often push. b)He had spent time over seeing parts of the intelligence budget, so was very sceptical of the things they were pushing and their effectiveness.