20 ms·

>For one thing, decriminalization is easy to do. Decriminalization is a bad idea. It increases demand, which gives gangs and mafia types more money. If you're

>For one thing, decriminalization is easy to do. Decriminalization is a bad idea. It increases demand, which gives gangs and mafia types more money. If you're going to do it, legalize it.

paulojreis 11y ago
The Portuguese case study says that it's really not a bad idea (though not referring specifically the increasing or diminishing illegal business, just less "street value") [1][2]. But I agree with your corollary. [1] https://www.drugpolicy.org/sites/default/files/DPA_Fact_Sheet_Portugal_Decriminalization_Feb2015.pdf https://www.drugpolicy.org/sites/default/files/DPA_Fact_Shee... [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drug_policy_of_Portugal#Observations https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drug_policy_of_Portugal#Observ...
- ctolsen 11y ago
  Well, even if it doesn't change much, you're still stuck with the absolute worst part of drug prohibition – unregulated and unclean drugs, turf wars and violence, and hundreds of thousands of murders in less fortunate countries. I find decriminalisation to be a pretty egoistic way around the problem. Sure, it makes lives better for people at home, but it completely ignores the massive amount of suffering countries (including Canada) has brought on supply and transit countries.
bayesian_horse 11y ago
I can't see that being an option in the case of heroin or meth. It makes sense to decriminalize users/addicts because they are the victims whom drug legislation is supposed to protect in the first place. But to me it makes no sense to allow anyone to profit from a substance that causes this much harm.
- exprA 11y ago
  How did they manage it in the 30s (or whenever depending on your nationality)? Are you absolutely certain that criminalization wasn't an overreaction to a problem that after all wasn't all that big?
  - bayesian_horse 11y ago
    Short answer: They didn't. Back then lives were being ruined as well. And the availability and affordability of dangerous drugs has only increased since then. People just didn't make such a "fuss" of addiction, and especially in the case of poorer people, nobody really cared.
    - coldtea 11y ago
      >People just didn't make such a "fuss" of addiction So why should we make a fuss out of it today? >and especially in the case of poorer people, nobody really cared. Whereas now they do?
      - u_me_him 11y ago
        Is a case of "the road to hell is paved with good intentions"
  - coldtea 11y ago
    In fact it still isn't that big. >An estimated 13.5 million people in the world take opioids (opium-like substances), including 9.2 million who use heroin. That's an insignificant number compared to the global population and all the harm the BS cat/mouse game with mafia and police has caused.
  - neverknowsbest 11y ago
    If you've got a free hour-or-so sometime this BBC documentary is pretty engaging and describes the opiate timeline regarding use and legal status: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I3M1QPoeNMU https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I3M1QPoeNMU
- ooooo00000 11y ago
  > But to me it makes no sense to allow anyone to profit from a substance that causes this much harm. It's possible to use heroin daily for the remainder of your life and have a better health outcome than a cigarette smoker. The drug war makes heroin use more dangerous. Now you have dirty needles, cut drugs, highly inconsistent doses, lack of free treatment/therapy, fear of police and the legal system that leads to reluctance to seek medical attention, etc. And of course black market violence still exists here and abroad. "Like most opioids, unadulterated heroin does not cause many long-term complications other than dependence and constipation." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heroin#Adverse_effects https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heroin#Adverse_effects
- ktRolster 11y ago
  Switzerland had success with the heroin problem. They've made it legal and free, but to get it free, you need to visit a hospital for your daily injection, where they also can give you psychological help. The program seems to have been a success, destroying the market for illegal heroin, and also reducing demand because it gives the drug a perception of being for losers.

>For one thing, decriminalization is easy to do. Decriminalization is a bad idea. It increases demand, which gives gangs and mafia types more money. If you're going to do it, legalize it.

paulojreis 11y ago

The Portuguese case study says that it's really not a bad idea (though not referring specifically the increasing or diminishing illegal business, just less "street value") [1][2]. But I agree with your corollary. [1] https://www.drugpolicy.org/sites/default/files/DPA_Fact_Sheet_Portugal_Decriminalization_Feb2015.pdf https://www.drugpolicy.org/sites/default/files/DPA_Fact_Shee... [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drug_policy_of_Portugal#Observations https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drug_policy_of_Portugal#Observ...

ctolsen 11y ago
Well, even if it doesn't change much, you're still stuck with the absolute worst part of drug prohibition – unregulated and unclean drugs, turf wars and violence, and hundreds of thousands of murders in less fortunate countries. I find decriminalisation to be a pretty egoistic way around the problem. Sure, it makes lives better for people at home, but it completely ignores the massive amount of suffering countries (including Canada) has brought on supply and transit countries.

bayesian_horse 11y ago

I can't see that being an option in the case of heroin or meth. It makes sense to decriminalize users/addicts because they are the victims whom drug legislation is supposed to protect in the first place. But to me it makes no sense to allow anyone to profit from a substance that causes this much harm.

exprA 11y ago
How did they manage it in the 30s (or whenever depending on your nationality)? Are you absolutely certain that criminalization wasn't an overreaction to a problem that after all wasn't all that big?
- bayesian_horse 11y ago
  Short answer: They didn't. Back then lives were being ruined as well. And the availability and affordability of dangerous drugs has only increased since then. People just didn't make such a "fuss" of addiction, and especially in the case of poorer people, nobody really cared.
  - coldtea 11y ago
    >People just didn't make such a "fuss" of addiction So why should we make a fuss out of it today? >and especially in the case of poorer people, nobody really cared. Whereas now they do?
    - u_me_him 11y ago
      Is a case of "the road to hell is paved with good intentions"
- coldtea 11y ago
  In fact it still isn't that big. >An estimated 13.5 million people in the world take opioids (opium-like substances), including 9.2 million who use heroin. That's an insignificant number compared to the global population and all the harm the BS cat/mouse game with mafia and police has caused.
- neverknowsbest 11y ago
  If you've got a free hour-or-so sometime this BBC documentary is pretty engaging and describes the opiate timeline regarding use and legal status: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I3M1QPoeNMU https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I3M1QPoeNMU
ooooo00000 11y ago
> But to me it makes no sense to allow anyone to profit from a substance that causes this much harm. It's possible to use heroin daily for the remainder of your life and have a better health outcome than a cigarette smoker. The drug war makes heroin use more dangerous. Now you have dirty needles, cut drugs, highly inconsistent doses, lack of free treatment/therapy, fear of police and the legal system that leads to reluctance to seek medical attention, etc. And of course black market violence still exists here and abroad. "Like most opioids, unadulterated heroin does not cause many long-term complications other than dependence and constipation." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heroin#Adverse_effects https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heroin#Adverse_effects
ktRolster 11y ago
Switzerland had success with the heroin problem. They've made it legal and free, but to get it free, you need to visit a hospital for your daily injection, where they also can give you psychological help. The program seems to have been a success, destroying the market for illegal heroin, and also reducing demand because it gives the drug a perception of being for losers.