12 ms·

Ravens are just better programmed for obtaining difficult to access food (makes sense, see insects). Compare human and goldfish intelligence according to whom

by hodwik 10y ago

Ravens are just better programmed for obtaining difficult to access food (makes sense, see insects). Compare human and goldfish intelligence according to whom better understands tiny currents and you'll find the goldfish wins every time, even against oceanographers.

j1o1h1n 10y ago
I too welcome the coming of our supercavitating goldfish overlords.
marchenko 10y ago
Chimpanzees are known to 'fish' for termites, which is a fairly complex behavior involving a hidden food source, so I'm not sure the test is obviously biased toward ravens (unless they also administered the Raven's Matrices). It would be interesting to see if there were any sex-related differences in performance, as it is female chimps who do most of the insect hunting, and teach it to their daughters).
- masklinn 10y ago
  > Chimpanzees are known to 'fish' for termites, which is a fairly complex behavior involving a hidden food source, so I'm not sure the test is obviously biased toward ravens (unless they also administered the Raven's Matrices) Caledonian crows fish for/spear grubs (hidden in wood) using small twigs, fashioning them into hooks when the sticks aren't naturally barbed.
- FreeFull 10y ago
  Chimpanzees are also known to cooperate when hunting monkeys.
titzer 10y ago
Experiments have been done that control for this. Here's an impressive video of a Crow solving an 8-step puzzle to get a reward. http://fb-192.dailymegabyte.com/wild-crow-shows-incredible-intelligence-during-complex-test/ http://fb-192.dailymegabyte.com/wild-crow-shows-incredible-i... It's more than just digging and pecking.
- hodwik 10y ago
  I didn't say it's just digging and pecking. What I'm contending is that the conflation of complex behavior with intelligence is anthropomorphization of the worst kind. 1. We are aware of very complex systems that are definitely not conscious, or even animal. (See natural selection, robots) 2. We're also aware of complex behavior which is probably not conscious, given the lack of a proper brain (see Bees, Ants, and other insects). 3. We are aware of very complex behaviors that humans may do without being conscious of them (unconsciously answering questions, sleep walking/talking, complex muscle-memory activities like driving, doodling). So, given the wealth of data showing that complex behavior can be completely unconscious, in the absence of proof we ought to remain skeptical. When claiming that a complex behavior is conscious or intelligent behavior, even among apes, the burden of proof lands on the person making the claim.

by hodwik 10y ago

j1o1h1n 10y ago

I too welcome the coming of our supercavitating goldfish overlords.

marchenko 10y ago

Chimpanzees are known to 'fish' for termites, which is a fairly complex behavior involving a hidden food source, so I'm not sure the test is obviously biased toward ravens (unless they also administered the Raven's Matrices). It would be interesting to see if there were any sex-related differences in performance, as it is female chimps who do most of the insect hunting, and teach it to their daughters).

masklinn 10y ago
> Chimpanzees are known to 'fish' for termites, which is a fairly complex behavior involving a hidden food source, so I'm not sure the test is obviously biased toward ravens (unless they also administered the Raven's Matrices) Caledonian crows fish for/spear grubs (hidden in wood) using small twigs, fashioning them into hooks when the sticks aren't naturally barbed.
FreeFull 10y ago
Chimpanzees are also known to cooperate when hunting monkeys.

titzer 10y ago

Experiments have been done that control for this. Here's an impressive video of a Crow solving an 8-step puzzle to get a reward. http://fb-192.dailymegabyte.com/wild-crow-shows-incredible-intelligence-during-complex-test/ http://fb-192.dailymegabyte.com/wild-crow-shows-incredible-i... It's more than just digging and pecking.

hodwik 10y ago
I didn't say it's just digging and pecking. What I'm contending is that the conflation of complex behavior with intelligence is anthropomorphization of the worst kind. 1. We are aware of very complex systems that are definitely not conscious, or even animal. (See natural selection, robots) 2. We're also aware of complex behavior which is probably not conscious, given the lack of a proper brain (see Bees, Ants, and other insects). 3. We are aware of very complex behaviors that humans may do without being conscious of them (unconsciously answering questions, sleep walking/talking, complex muscle-memory activities like driving, doodling). So, given the wealth of data showing that complex behavior can be completely unconscious, in the absence of proof we ought to remain skeptical. When claiming that a complex behavior is conscious or intelligent behavior, even among apes, the burden of proof lands on the person making the claim.