3 ms·

threatens the lives of poor people in third world countries, suddenly we're worried about the ecosystem? I don't know how this will be received. I don't even k

by cb18 10y ago

threatens the lives of poor people in third world countries, suddenly we're worried about the ecosystem? I don't know how this will be received. I don't even know how I feel about it. But someone has to ask the tough questions. Is it evolutionarily prudent to go about saving people who can't save themselves? our current solution of "let all the poor people die" is not a good one. I don't think that is our "current solution," the lives of many of the world's "poor" have gotten immeasurably better, health and material wise, since contact with Europeans. Prior to outside contact sub-Saharan Africans didn't have the wheel, written language, a calendar, buildings greater than 1-story, any mechanical devices, domesticated animals, ... Efforts against malaria, and for clean water are ongoing. Iodised salt does wonders. The list goes on... I don't know how you got in your mind your "current solution."

vegardx 10y ago
Hold on, evolution stopped being the driving force for human development a long time ago. The question you should be asking is how we can accept that so many people are unable to save themselves because of actions we (developed world) have taken. Both recently and in the past.
- cb18 10y ago
  evolution stopped being the driving force for human development a long time ago. Why in the world would you think that? We're still made of genes aren't we? We still sexually reproduce don't we? because of actions we (developed world) have taken Stark differences existed between the continents long before colonisation. Stark differences exist in areas that were never colonised. Some areas that were colonised are now thriving. As much as we like to flatter ourselves, we are not the cause of all the world's problems. Nor is the constant haranguing of people who have nothing to do with events decades and centuries past of benefit to anybody.
  - mirimir 10y ago
    True. But it's social and cultural evolution that matter now.
    - cb18 10y ago
      Societies and cultures are just the emergent results of the interaction of phenotypes. i.e. Culture and people are one and the same.
      - mirimir 10y ago
        So? Physics is just emergent properties of ... (math?). Chemistry is just emergent properties of physics. Biology is just emergent properties of chemistry. It's turtles, all the way.
      - CamperBob2 10y ago
        No, you can opt out of the culture you were born into.
        cb18 10y ago
        Sure, but if you're born in Canada and move to a city in China, then your phenotype is contributing to the cosmopolitan culture of that city, and the culture of the city is contributing to your phenotype.
      - mirimir 10y ago
        My first response was pathetic :( Let's consider biology. Physics and chemistry constrain biological processes and systems, for sure. But the number of distinct proteins based on the same set of amino acids, for example, is arguably unlimited (or at least, huge). Selection may favor one protein over another, and yet have virtually no impact on amino acid structure and diversity. Let alone on atoms, nucleons, quarks, etc. The same applies to societies and cultures vs peoples.
- tmptmp 10y ago
  >>The question you should be asking is how we can accept that so many people are unable to save themselves because of actions we (developed world) have taken. Both recently and in the past. The developed world (mainly western) has inflicted some atrocities on the other parts but that is not what you trying to picture here. There were countless examples of even the tauted-to-be-benevolent tribal people (e.g. African) attacking and trying to wipe out other tribes throughout the world history. Alas, currently it has become fashionable to put the entire blame on developed western world. This is propaganda (the one that Marxists and communists also love to spread). I am not a westerner but I do acknowledge many great deeds done by the westerners in the other parts of the world. Internet, electricity, railways, trucks, roads, aeroplanes, mobile-phones, project Gutenberg, concrete, internet archive, Wikipedia, better agriculture practices, agro machines: take your pick. Also add to that the recent initiatives like MIT OCW. These things which the western world has given to the entire world there is no parallel such benevolent behaviour in the human history. I am grateful to the developed world for such acts of courage and rising above one's own good and one's own religious sentiments. I am an Asian, and I do know how mean and malevolent our own people had been and have been even now. Countless massacres and oppressive practices by the Islamists and communists and other tribes and groups. Personally for me, the projects like Internet, internet archive, Wikipedia and OCW have been so beneficial that I cannot imagine myself educating me without them at such a low cost. BTW, evolution is a complex phenomena but social structures are also important in overall progress of the society. The western developed societal structure is the best societal structure as of yet. W.r.t. this it is no wonder, for many people here (including me), the western world seems like heaven.

by cb18 10y ago

vegardx 10y ago

Hold on, evolution stopped being the driving force for human development a long time ago. The question you should be asking is how we can accept that so many people are unable to save themselves because of actions we (developed world) have taken. Both recently and in the past.

cb18 10y ago
evolution stopped being the driving force for human development a long time ago. Why in the world would you think that? We're still made of genes aren't we? We still sexually reproduce don't we? because of actions we (developed world) have taken Stark differences existed between the continents long before colonisation. Stark differences exist in areas that were never colonised. Some areas that were colonised are now thriving. As much as we like to flatter ourselves, we are not the cause of all the world's problems. Nor is the constant haranguing of people who have nothing to do with events decades and centuries past of benefit to anybody.
- mirimir 10y ago
  True. But it's social and cultural evolution that matter now.
  - cb18 10y ago
    Societies and cultures are just the emergent results of the interaction of phenotypes. i.e. Culture and people are one and the same.
    - mirimir 10y ago
      So? Physics is just emergent properties of ... (math?). Chemistry is just emergent properties of physics. Biology is just emergent properties of chemistry. It's turtles, all the way.
    - CamperBob2 10y ago
      No, you can opt out of the culture you were born into.
      - cb18 10y ago
        Sure, but if you're born in Canada and move to a city in China, then your phenotype is contributing to the cosmopolitan culture of that city, and the culture of the city is contributing to your phenotype.
    - mirimir 10y ago
      My first response was pathetic :( Let's consider biology. Physics and chemistry constrain biological processes and systems, for sure. But the number of distinct proteins based on the same set of amino acids, for example, is arguably unlimited (or at least, huge). Selection may favor one protein over another, and yet have virtually no impact on amino acid structure and diversity. Let alone on atoms, nucleons, quarks, etc. The same applies to societies and cultures vs peoples.
tmptmp 10y ago
>>The question you should be asking is how we can accept that so many people are unable to save themselves because of actions we (developed world) have taken. Both recently and in the past. The developed world (mainly western) has inflicted some atrocities on the other parts but that is not what you trying to picture here. There were countless examples of even the tauted-to-be-benevolent tribal people (e.g. African) attacking and trying to wipe out other tribes throughout the world history. Alas, currently it has become fashionable to put the entire blame on developed western world. This is propaganda (the one that Marxists and communists also love to spread). I am not a westerner but I do acknowledge many great deeds done by the westerners in the other parts of the world. Internet, electricity, railways, trucks, roads, aeroplanes, mobile-phones, project Gutenberg, concrete, internet archive, Wikipedia, better agriculture practices, agro machines: take your pick. Also add to that the recent initiatives like MIT OCW. These things which the western world has given to the entire world there is no parallel such benevolent behaviour in the human history. I am grateful to the developed world for such acts of courage and rising above one's own good and one's own religious sentiments. I am an Asian, and I do know how mean and malevolent our own people had been and have been even now. Countless massacres and oppressive practices by the Islamists and communists and other tribes and groups. Personally for me, the projects like Internet, internet archive, Wikipedia and OCW have been so beneficial that I cannot imagine myself educating me without them at such a low cost. BTW, evolution is a complex phenomena but social structures are also important in overall progress of the society. The western developed societal structure is the best societal structure as of yet. W.r.t. this it is no wonder, for many people here (including me), the western world seems like heaven.