6 ms·

So this is what the future is like. Imagine you're on the freeway when suddenly a chip malfunctions and your doors open. How exciting!

by joshmn 11y ago

3327 11y ago
Stock manipulating is a federal offence. Funny how unproven claims get picked up by the press and various outlets. How hard is it to get 30 ppl to complain about model X?
JoBrad 11y ago
I don't think that any of the Tesla owners really thought their cutting-edge cars would be worry free. They have the same expectations as someone who uses beta software, and in exchange they get to experience an amazing car. Also don't forget that we have had problems like this with mechanical devices in cars, too. Slowly, we started using regulation and other tools to mandate additional safety checks (like the latch on your hood that prevents it from blowing back and smashing your windshield) to prevent those from happening. We're nowhere near anything like this for chips, really. On the other hand, this is what the future is really like: in a few days or weeks, Tesla will release an update to fix this, and will probably deliver it wirelessly to every affected vehicle, and it won't be a problem any more. That's magic.
- imron 11y ago
  > They have the same expectations as someone who uses beta software, Really? After paying $140,000? I think for that price many of them were expecting (quite reasonably) that their cars would be worry free.
  - BinaryIdiot 11y ago
    Alternatively many companies and governments spend licensing fees magnitudes higher than that for software that works terribly if at all. It's nothing new in the technology sector just a bit new in a consumer device. But ultimately I agree with you
    - Alphasite_ 11y ago
      It may happen, but it is not acceptable.
    - imron 11y ago
      > Alternatively many companies and governments spend licensing fees magnitudes higher than that for software that works terribly if at all. That's right, because the person making the purchase order doesn't really feel like they are spending their own money.
- nindalf 11y ago
  I think Tesla owners bought the car expecting a fully functioning vehicle. Running a long running public "beta" a la Gmail isn't an option when your customers have paid you tens of thousands of $.
- mng2 11y ago
  Unfortunately hardware updates can't be delivered wirelessly.
userbinator 11y ago
Or alternatively, you're trying to get out and neither the doors nor windows will open. To add more excitement, you really have to go to the washroom. This is why I believe there should always be a mechanical override for safety-critical features; locks, brakes, steering. I trust hardware far more than software.
- dllthomas 11y ago
  I don't know that I trust hardware more, but hardware is roughly equally involved in any case...
  - userbinator 11y ago
    I meant hardware in the "old-school" sense of physical linkages and hydraulics, not computer hardware whose behaviour is controlled by some massively complex blob of software. For example, if I pull the door handle of my car, it directly activates the latch, and the only way that could fail is if something physically breaks or jams. It's not just a switch sending a signal to some "brain" in between that could just decide, deliberately or otherwise, to not honour my "I want the door to open" request. People are often surprised to learn that, despite me making a living off software development, my daily driver is one that has exactly zero lines of code controlling it.
    - dllthomas 11y ago
      I meant hardware in the same sense as you. My point was that even if we assume the brain (borrowing your metaphor) makes no mistakes, introducing it does not reduce the amount of physical breakage and jammage that is likely to occur. You're not choosing hardware over software, here - in which case I might choose differently - you're choosing to eliminate an entire link in the chain. That's always going to be a win for reliability.
    - mehrdada 11y ago
      Perhaps "trustworthiness" is not the best word for the concept. I'm not sure mechanical hardware is more trustworthy (mechanical stuff also fail often and can be unreliable), but their behavior is somewhat more malleable by the user (i.e. via extra force), as opposed to complex blackbox electronics/software. I think we need a good term to describe this specific kind of trustworthiness.
a_bonobo 11y ago
My parents used to have an Audi A5 - sometimes, when you've hit a decline just right, it would shut off completely, no steering, nothing, all you could do was to let the car roll and reboot it. This is a known software problem: http://www.audiworld.com/forums/audi-a5-s5-rs5-coupe-cabrio-125/very-strange-concern-engine-shut-off-twice-while-driving-2722655/ http://www.audiworld.com/forums/audi-a5-s5-rs5-coupe-cabrio-... I.e., the future is already here and it sucks
- userbinator 11y ago
  That's scary, especially considering the controversy over a similar problem that also lead to unexpected shutoffs: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_Motors_ignition_switch_recalls https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_Motors_ignition_switch... But in the link you provided there's several comments that it happened shortly after refueling, which suggests to me a much simpler hypothesis of the root cause --- bubbles in the fuel line.
- vecinu 11y ago
  Honestly, I wouldn't classify 8 forum posts as a "known software problem". I think if this was as wide spread as you make it seem, there would have already been a recall made by VW as this is clearly a huge safety hazard.
  - qaq 11y ago
    Take the number of vehicles in the field, A, multiply by the probable rate of failure, B, multiply by the average out-of-court settlement, C. A times B times C equals X. If X is less than the cost of a recall, we don't do one. (Fight Club)
    - rangibaby 11y ago
      It's actually a paraphrasing of the Ivey (GM) and Grush-Saunby reports (Ford) from the 1970s. This was several years after Ralph Nader's famous book, Unsafe at Any Speed (1965) 1. http://lawprofessors.typepad.com/tortsprof/files/FordMemo.pdf http://lawprofessors.typepad.com/tortsprof/files/FordMemo.pd... 2. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unsafe_at_Any_Speed https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unsafe_at_Any_Speed
ptaipale 11y ago
In normal cars, when you're on the freeway, it doesn't really matter if the door opens, because the air pressure will keep it tightly shut. It takes some considerable effort to push open a car door at 80 km/h. Gull wing doors are different though, not to mention rear-hinged doors (aka suicide doors).
- ww520 11y ago
  That's a very good point about rear-hinged doors. Never thought of that. I've seen Honda Element and some other cars have that rear-hinged doors and the setup didn't feel quite right but never able to figure out why.
  - huuu 11y ago
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suicide_door https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suicide_door
  - ptaipale 11y ago
    In Element and similar pickup-SUVs the rear door is still quite small so it doesn't feel so scary. In others, such as current Opel Meriva B, the door about as big as the front door. And just look at Rolls Royce Wraith. My dad's first car (which he bought in 1960) also had suicide doors in the rear; that was a Moskvitch 400, which in turn was practically the same design as Opel Kadett model 1938 - the Soviets took the design, toolings and machinery from occupied Germany after WWII.
  - beejamin 11y ago
    The Element, and all the other modern, pillar-less 'suicide rear door' cars I've seen (Landcruiser FJ, Mazda something-something), have the rear door latched by the front one, so you can't open the rear without first opening the front, 'normally hinged' door - it's a pretty good safeguard against latches failing and doors being sucked open while driving.
    - aedron 11y ago
      Yep. Same on the electric BMW i3 btw.
rtpg 11y ago
Right, and in older cars you can end up hitting a pedestrian that would totally be preventable with this technology. For some reason I feel like this will save a lot more lives than it will take away.

So this is what the future is like. Imagine you're on the freeway when suddenly a chip malfunctions and your doors open. How exciting!

by joshmn 11y ago

So this is what the future is like. Imagine you're on the freeway when suddenly a chip malfunctions and your doors open. How exciting!

3327 11y ago

Stock manipulating is a federal offence. Funny how unproven claims get picked up by the press and various outlets. How hard is it to get 30 ppl to complain about model X?

JoBrad 11y ago

I don't think that any of the Tesla owners really thought their cutting-edge cars would be worry free. They have the same expectations as someone who uses beta software, and in exchange they get to experience an amazing car. Also don't forget that we have had problems like this with mechanical devices in cars, too. Slowly, we started using regulation and other tools to mandate additional safety checks (like the latch on your hood that prevents it from blowing back and smashing your windshield) to prevent those from happening. We're nowhere near anything like this for chips, really. On the other hand, this is what the future is really like: in a few days or weeks, Tesla will release an update to fix this, and will probably deliver it wirelessly to every affected vehicle, and it won't be a problem any more. That's magic.

imron 11y ago
> They have the same expectations as someone who uses beta software, Really? After paying $140,000? I think for that price many of them were expecting (quite reasonably) that their cars would be worry free.
- BinaryIdiot 11y ago
  Alternatively many companies and governments spend licensing fees magnitudes higher than that for software that works terribly if at all. It's nothing new in the technology sector just a bit new in a consumer device. But ultimately I agree with you
  - Alphasite_ 11y ago
    It may happen, but it is not acceptable.
  - imron 11y ago
    > Alternatively many companies and governments spend licensing fees magnitudes higher than that for software that works terribly if at all. That's right, because the person making the purchase order doesn't really feel like they are spending their own money.
nindalf 11y ago
I think Tesla owners bought the car expecting a fully functioning vehicle. Running a long running public "beta" a la Gmail isn't an option when your customers have paid you tens of thousands of $.
mng2 11y ago
Unfortunately hardware updates can't be delivered wirelessly.

userbinator 11y ago

Or alternatively, you're trying to get out and neither the doors nor windows will open. To add more excitement, you really have to go to the washroom. This is why I believe there should always be a mechanical override for safety-critical features; locks, brakes, steering. I trust hardware far more than software.

dllthomas 11y ago
I don't know that I trust hardware more, but hardware is roughly equally involved in any case...
- userbinator 11y ago
  I meant hardware in the "old-school" sense of physical linkages and hydraulics, not computer hardware whose behaviour is controlled by some massively complex blob of software. For example, if I pull the door handle of my car, it directly activates the latch, and the only way that could fail is if something physically breaks or jams. It's not just a switch sending a signal to some "brain" in between that could just decide, deliberately or otherwise, to not honour my "I want the door to open" request. People are often surprised to learn that, despite me making a living off software development, my daily driver is one that has exactly zero lines of code controlling it.
  - dllthomas 11y ago
    I meant hardware in the same sense as you. My point was that even if we assume the brain (borrowing your metaphor) makes no mistakes, introducing it does not reduce the amount of physical breakage and jammage that is likely to occur. You're not choosing hardware over software, here - in which case I might choose differently - you're choosing to eliminate an entire link in the chain. That's always going to be a win for reliability.
  - mehrdada 11y ago
    Perhaps "trustworthiness" is not the best word for the concept. I'm not sure mechanical hardware is more trustworthy (mechanical stuff also fail often and can be unreliable), but their behavior is somewhat more malleable by the user (i.e. via extra force), as opposed to complex blackbox electronics/software. I think we need a good term to describe this specific kind of trustworthiness.

a_bonobo 11y ago

My parents used to have an Audi A5 - sometimes, when you've hit a decline just right, it would shut off completely, no steering, nothing, all you could do was to let the car roll and reboot it. This is a known software problem: http://www.audiworld.com/forums/audi-a5-s5-rs5-coupe-cabrio-125/very-strange-concern-engine-shut-off-twice-while-driving-2722655/ http://www.audiworld.com/forums/audi-a5-s5-rs5-coupe-cabrio-... I.e., the future is already here and it sucks

userbinator 11y ago
That's scary, especially considering the controversy over a similar problem that also lead to unexpected shutoffs: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_Motors_ignition_switch_recalls https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_Motors_ignition_switch... But in the link you provided there's several comments that it happened shortly after refueling, which suggests to me a much simpler hypothesis of the root cause --- bubbles in the fuel line.
vecinu 11y ago
Honestly, I wouldn't classify 8 forum posts as a "known software problem". I think if this was as wide spread as you make it seem, there would have already been a recall made by VW as this is clearly a huge safety hazard.
- qaq 11y ago
  Take the number of vehicles in the field, A, multiply by the probable rate of failure, B, multiply by the average out-of-court settlement, C. A times B times C equals X. If X is less than the cost of a recall, we don't do one. (Fight Club)
  - rangibaby 11y ago
    It's actually a paraphrasing of the Ivey (GM) and Grush-Saunby reports (Ford) from the 1970s. This was several years after Ralph Nader's famous book, Unsafe at Any Speed (1965) 1. http://lawprofessors.typepad.com/tortsprof/files/FordMemo.pdf http://lawprofessors.typepad.com/tortsprof/files/FordMemo.pd... 2. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unsafe_at_Any_Speed https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unsafe_at_Any_Speed

ptaipale 11y ago

In normal cars, when you're on the freeway, it doesn't really matter if the door opens, because the air pressure will keep it tightly shut. It takes some considerable effort to push open a car door at 80 km/h. Gull wing doors are different though, not to mention rear-hinged doors (aka suicide doors).

ww520 11y ago
That's a very good point about rear-hinged doors. Never thought of that. I've seen Honda Element and some other cars have that rear-hinged doors and the setup didn't feel quite right but never able to figure out why.
- huuu 11y ago
  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suicide_door https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suicide_door
- ptaipale 11y ago
  In Element and similar pickup-SUVs the rear door is still quite small so it doesn't feel so scary. In others, such as current Opel Meriva B, the door about as big as the front door. And just look at Rolls Royce Wraith. My dad's first car (which he bought in 1960) also had suicide doors in the rear; that was a Moskvitch 400, which in turn was practically the same design as Opel Kadett model 1938 - the Soviets took the design, toolings and machinery from occupied Germany after WWII.
- beejamin 11y ago
  The Element, and all the other modern, pillar-less 'suicide rear door' cars I've seen (Landcruiser FJ, Mazda something-something), have the rear door latched by the front one, so you can't open the rear without first opening the front, 'normally hinged' door - it's a pretty good safeguard against latches failing and doors being sucked open while driving.
  - aedron 11y ago
    Yep. Same on the electric BMW i3 btw.

rtpg 11y ago

Right, and in older cars you can end up hitting a pedestrian that would totally be preventable with this technology. For some reason I feel like this will save a lot more lives than it will take away.