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>> import hundreds of thousands of foreigners to replace their American workers Oh FFS. Stopped reading there. I don't know what incentives are there for hirin

>> import hundreds of thousands of foreigners to replace their American workers Oh FFS. Stopped reading there. I don't know what incentives are there for hiring immigrants. Immigration is hard and you end up with a less flexible employee. Immigrants are getting hired because they're people, and they happen to be people who are qualified for the jobs.

daveloyall 11y ago
Yeah I stopped reading there, too. Somebody should fork their site and edit out all the Falling Down (1993 film) moments.
cortesoft 11y ago
I also hate the argument that somehow an American deserves or needs the job more than an immigrant. Creating a job is a great thing, no matter where the person is from.
- guard-of-terra 11y ago
  USA is a country of Americans so don't act surprised when some Americans think that needs of fellow Americans need to be catered first. That's normal. You can't help others when you, firstly, don't help yourself. Non-American here.
  - cortesoft 11y ago
    I am an American, and love my country and plan on living here my whole life. I want my country to be successful, and I buy into a lot of the values that are quintessentially 'American'. However, I still find it strange to think someone who happens to be born inside the borders of America somehow deserves a job more than someone born outside the borders. It always seems quite arbitrary - I mean, I am also a Californian, but I don't get upset if someone hires a Floridian instead of a Californian. I live in Los Angeles, but I don't get upset if someone hires a person from San Diego.
    - guard-of-terra 11y ago
      It's not about who deserves something. It's about obligations. USA (as society and as government) is obliged to care more about Americans' well-being than it is about all other people in the world's well-being. If this stops, you have no society, just government and a bad one at that. Trust somebody who lives in a "state" like that.
      - cortesoft 11y ago
        This assumes that 'the state == society' I guess I think of society as being larger than the state these days. I can interact with, share, befriend, and work with people in another country just as quickly and easily as I can with someone living in the same country (case in point, this conversation here). Our state borders do not define our society.
    - xlm1717 11y ago
      City and state borders are very different to national borders.
  - TallGuyShort 11y ago
    Yeah but you mainly hear it from the right, who usually claims they believe in the free market, but then wants special treatment for all their business interests under the law. If you believe in the free market, go ahead and compete with cheap labor elsewhere in the world by specializing. If you don't believe in the free market, stop calling all your political opponents socialists like you think that's a bad thing. (and by you I mean right-wing America, not you)
bpchaps 11y ago
Eh, the tact was definitely off, but the message still holds some some truth. I've worked at my fair share of large companies and the mark of a shift of events towards misery, dread and outage galore is when h1b becomes more widespread combined with folks getting replaced with other folk out of Hyderabad/Bangalore/etc. There's also a lot to be said for ensuring that the local workforce has exposure to technical work to build local skill. Some of the most talented, smartest and hardest working folk I've met hold h1bs, so I'm not opposed to the idea by any means, just the current state and the implementation that got us here. Those same guys also say that they feel like they're pinned to jobs they often loathe since they'll be kicked out of the country if they quit - even after getting a degree here.
lukeschlather 11y ago
It's important to note that they are specifically talking about H1B labor. And H1Bs are not technically immigrants. The H1B visa is a temporary guest-worker program. Now, the question is, why are tech companies asking for an expansion of the H1B program rather than simply asking for more green cards? The answer, of course, is that H1Bs are easier to abuse and underpay. This isn't a simple case of "immigrants stealing our jobs." The H1B program does a lot to suppress tech wages, and I'd like to see the path to citizenship eased. I don't see any reason companies should be able to keep guest workers in the country for more than a couple years before sponsoring them for a full green card.
- omegaworks 11y ago
  There should not be a second class status for ANY worker in this country. Doing so is distorting the labor market and suppressing wages. If we need more workers then we need more citizens, cut and dry. There shouldn't be this grey in-between - it is a crack that too many fall through.
  - xlm1717 11y ago
    We have enough citizens. It's not that companies need workers, it's that they need cheap workers.
ascendingPig 11y ago
Having a less flexible employee is a real upside for certain notorious companies. Having an employee who can't leave your company or they get kicked out of the country? That's a situation ripe for abuse.

daveloyall 11y ago

Yeah I stopped reading there, too. Somebody should fork their site and edit out all the Falling Down (1993 film) moments.

cortesoft 11y ago

I also hate the argument that somehow an American deserves or needs the job more than an immigrant. Creating a job is a great thing, no matter where the person is from.

guard-of-terra 11y ago
USA is a country of Americans so don't act surprised when some Americans think that needs of fellow Americans need to be catered first. That's normal. You can't help others when you, firstly, don't help yourself. Non-American here.
- cortesoft 11y ago
  I am an American, and love my country and plan on living here my whole life. I want my country to be successful, and I buy into a lot of the values that are quintessentially 'American'. However, I still find it strange to think someone who happens to be born inside the borders of America somehow deserves a job more than someone born outside the borders. It always seems quite arbitrary - I mean, I am also a Californian, but I don't get upset if someone hires a Floridian instead of a Californian. I live in Los Angeles, but I don't get upset if someone hires a person from San Diego.
  - guard-of-terra 11y ago
    It's not about who deserves something. It's about obligations. USA (as society and as government) is obliged to care more about Americans' well-being than it is about all other people in the world's well-being. If this stops, you have no society, just government and a bad one at that. Trust somebody who lives in a "state" like that.
    - cortesoft 11y ago
      This assumes that 'the state == society' I guess I think of society as being larger than the state these days. I can interact with, share, befriend, and work with people in another country just as quickly and easily as I can with someone living in the same country (case in point, this conversation here). Our state borders do not define our society.
  - xlm1717 11y ago
    City and state borders are very different to national borders.
- TallGuyShort 11y ago
  Yeah but you mainly hear it from the right, who usually claims they believe in the free market, but then wants special treatment for all their business interests under the law. If you believe in the free market, go ahead and compete with cheap labor elsewhere in the world by specializing. If you don't believe in the free market, stop calling all your political opponents socialists like you think that's a bad thing. (and by you I mean right-wing America, not you)

bpchaps 11y ago

Eh, the tact was definitely off, but the message still holds some some truth. I've worked at my fair share of large companies and the mark of a shift of events towards misery, dread and outage galore is when h1b becomes more widespread combined with folks getting replaced with other folk out of Hyderabad/Bangalore/etc. There's also a lot to be said for ensuring that the local workforce has exposure to technical work to build local skill. Some of the most talented, smartest and hardest working folk I've met hold h1bs, so I'm not opposed to the idea by any means, just the current state and the implementation that got us here. Those same guys also say that they feel like they're pinned to jobs they often loathe since they'll be kicked out of the country if they quit - even after getting a degree here.

lukeschlather 11y ago

It's important to note that they are specifically talking about H1B labor. And H1Bs are not technically immigrants. The H1B visa is a temporary guest-worker program. Now, the question is, why are tech companies asking for an expansion of the H1B program rather than simply asking for more green cards? The answer, of course, is that H1Bs are easier to abuse and underpay. This isn't a simple case of "immigrants stealing our jobs." The H1B program does a lot to suppress tech wages, and I'd like to see the path to citizenship eased. I don't see any reason companies should be able to keep guest workers in the country for more than a couple years before sponsoring them for a full green card.

omegaworks 11y ago
There should not be a second class status for ANY worker in this country. Doing so is distorting the labor market and suppressing wages. If we need more workers then we need more citizens, cut and dry. There shouldn't be this grey in-between - it is a crack that too many fall through.
- xlm1717 11y ago
  We have enough citizens. It's not that companies need workers, it's that they need cheap workers.

ascendingPig 11y ago

Having a less flexible employee is a real upside for certain notorious companies. Having an employee who can't leave your company or they get kicked out of the country? That's a situation ripe for abuse.