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After most compilers started properly supporting the newer C++ standards, it seems there has been an increase in the amount of love that C++ libraries are getti

by rburhum 11y ago

After most compilers started properly supporting the newer C++ standards, it seems there has been an increase in the amount of love that C++ libraries are getting. A lot of people like the to say that [x] is superior to C or C++ - often ignoring that their favorite language's libraries/runtime/compilers/vm is most likely implemented in the very same languages they are putting down.

derefr 11y ago
> often ignoring that their favorite language's libraries/runtime/compilers/vm is most likely implemented in the very same languages they are putting down I don't see how that's an argument against a language being "superior to C or C++". You can't create a self-hosting compiler for your language without having already created a non-self-hosting compiler for your language. That means every language is going to have to be "bootstrapped" in terms of something else first. C is the usual candidate just because there are a plethora of useful compiler/runtime/vm-ish libraries people like to rely on for "language prototyping" that expose C bindings—and there are very few other languages than C/C++ that have zero-overhead, zero-friction C binding support. Rust is one of those languages—and it does indeed look like things are going in the direction of new languages getting prototyped/bootstrapped with a Rust compiler/runtime/vm instead.
- santaclaus 11y ago
  > Rust is one of those languages—and it does indeed look like things are going in the direction of new languages getting prototyped/bootstrapped with a Rust compiler/runtime/vm instead. I'm curious what examples you have in mind here? LLVM seems to be the default go-to compiler infrastructure, at the moment.
pjmlp 11y ago
> After most compilers started properly supporting the newer C++ standards, it seems there has been an increase in the amount of love that C++ libraries are getting. Sadly there are many more compilers out there than just gcc, clang, icc and msvc++. Many of those aren't still C++11 compliant, specially in mainframes, classical commercial UNIXes, embedded real time OS and certified compilers. But it is true, thanks to the productivity of latest standards, there has been an increase in C++ visibility, specially thanks to Microsoft. People like to bash their C++'s compliance, but they are the commercial vendor with the more up to date support, even than icc last time I checked. Also they were the main sponsors for Back to native conferences and eventually making it together with CppCon. https://blogs.msdn.microsoft.com/vcblog/2014/04/03/cppcon-the-c-conference/ https://blogs.msdn.microsoft.com/vcblog/2014/04/03/cppcon-th... Also Windows Phone is the only mobile OS where C++ is a first class language. >. A lot of people like the to say that [x] is superior to C or C++ - often ignoring that their favorite language's libraries/runtime/compilers/vm is most likely implemented in the very same languages they are putting down. A lot of people like to point out that fact, ignoring that many compiler writers tend to use C or C++ out of convenience for existing tools instead of bootraping the full eco-system around a new programming language. Many use the same route as Go, using one of those languages and when the toolchain gets mature, those parts get re-writen. All in all, I do like the language, now if we could get rid of those C underpinnings...
- santaclaus 11y ago
  Intel's C++11 support continues to be quite buggy. I'm still running into with issues with Intel's support for auto type deduction and for uniform initialization in non-obscure use scenarios.
  - pjmlp 11y ago
    Sorry I was updating the comment as you replied. I never used it, but last time this discussion came up and I searched for their support page many C++11 features were either TBD or GNU/Linux only. Thanks for the feeback.
- vvanders 11y ago
  Windows phone, first class C++? Man the times have changed. I remember when they made native code verboten in the Windows Mobile -> Windows Phone transition. Killed off a whole product line I was working on at the time.
  - pjmlp 11y ago
    Yes, you can either use C++ plus the C++/CX extension, which although look like C++/CLI are actually native. Making Visual C++ GUI developer experience finally comparable to what C++ Builder was offering in the mid-90's. Or if C++/CX extensions is something one hates, there is the Windows Runtime Library, a template based library similar to ATL. Finally Kenny Kerr has created a C++ projection based in pure modern C++ ans has been eventually hired by Microsoft to carry on his work. https://kennykerr.ca/2015/10/02/microsoft/ https://kennykerr.ca/2015/10/02/microsoft/ iOS comes second in terms of C++ support in mobile OS, where Objective-C++ plays the same role as C++/CX on WP. Just Android forces developers to enjoy the wonders of JNI, with APIs like Skia only exposed through it. I know that there are a few other mobile OSes that do support C++, but their market share coupled together is even worse than WP.
- chetanahuja 11y ago
  "Also Windows Phone is the only mobile OS where C++ is a first class language." Umm... I don't know how you define "first class language" but our SDK (networking stack) compiles C++ code right in the same XCode project with ObjC code without any sort of translation layers etc (a la JNI in Java) between the two.

by rburhum 11y ago

derefr 11y ago

> often ignoring that their favorite language's libraries/runtime/compilers/vm is most likely implemented in the very same languages they are putting down I don't see how that's an argument against a language being "superior to C or C++". You can't create a self-hosting compiler for your language without having already created a non-self-hosting compiler for your language. That means every language is going to have to be "bootstrapped" in terms of something else first. C is the usual candidate just because there are a plethora of useful compiler/runtime/vm-ish libraries people like to rely on for "language prototyping" that expose C bindings—and there are very few other languages than C/C++ that have zero-overhead, zero-friction C binding support. Rust is one of those languages—and it does indeed look like things are going in the direction of new languages getting prototyped/bootstrapped with a Rust compiler/runtime/vm instead.

santaclaus 11y ago
> Rust is one of those languages—and it does indeed look like things are going in the direction of new languages getting prototyped/bootstrapped with a Rust compiler/runtime/vm instead. I'm curious what examples you have in mind here? LLVM seems to be the default go-to compiler infrastructure, at the moment.

pjmlp 11y ago

> After most compilers started properly supporting the newer C++ standards, it seems there has been an increase in the amount of love that C++ libraries are getting. Sadly there are many more compilers out there than just gcc, clang, icc and msvc++. Many of those aren't still C++11 compliant, specially in mainframes, classical commercial UNIXes, embedded real time OS and certified compilers. But it is true, thanks to the productivity of latest standards, there has been an increase in C++ visibility, specially thanks to Microsoft. People like to bash their C++'s compliance, but they are the commercial vendor with the more up to date support, even than icc last time I checked. Also they were the main sponsors for Back to native conferences and eventually making it together with CppCon. https://blogs.msdn.microsoft.com/vcblog/2014/04/03/cppcon-the-c-conference/ https://blogs.msdn.microsoft.com/vcblog/2014/04/03/cppcon-th... Also Windows Phone is the only mobile OS where C++ is a first class language. >. A lot of people like the to say that [x] is superior to C or C++ - often ignoring that their favorite language's libraries/runtime/compilers/vm is most likely implemented in the very same languages they are putting down. A lot of people like to point out that fact, ignoring that many compiler writers tend to use C or C++ out of convenience for existing tools instead of bootraping the full eco-system around a new programming language. Many use the same route as Go, using one of those languages and when the toolchain gets mature, those parts get re-writen. All in all, I do like the language, now if we could get rid of those C underpinnings...

santaclaus 11y ago
Intel's C++11 support continues to be quite buggy. I'm still running into with issues with Intel's support for auto type deduction and for uniform initialization in non-obscure use scenarios.
- pjmlp 11y ago
  Sorry I was updating the comment as you replied. I never used it, but last time this discussion came up and I searched for their support page many C++11 features were either TBD or GNU/Linux only. Thanks for the feeback.
vvanders 11y ago
Windows phone, first class C++? Man the times have changed. I remember when they made native code verboten in the Windows Mobile -> Windows Phone transition. Killed off a whole product line I was working on at the time.
- pjmlp 11y ago
  Yes, you can either use C++ plus the C++/CX extension, which although look like C++/CLI are actually native. Making Visual C++ GUI developer experience finally comparable to what C++ Builder was offering in the mid-90's. Or if C++/CX extensions is something one hates, there is the Windows Runtime Library, a template based library similar to ATL. Finally Kenny Kerr has created a C++ projection based in pure modern C++ ans has been eventually hired by Microsoft to carry on his work. https://kennykerr.ca/2015/10/02/microsoft/ https://kennykerr.ca/2015/10/02/microsoft/ iOS comes second in terms of C++ support in mobile OS, where Objective-C++ plays the same role as C++/CX on WP. Just Android forces developers to enjoy the wonders of JNI, with APIs like Skia only exposed through it. I know that there are a few other mobile OSes that do support C++, but their market share coupled together is even worse than WP.
chetanahuja 11y ago
"Also Windows Phone is the only mobile OS where C++ is a first class language." Umm... I don't know how you define "first class language" but our SDK (networking stack) compiles C++ code right in the same XCode project with ObjC code without any sort of translation layers etc (a la JNI in Java) between the two.