6 ms·

Fresh evidence links Saudi government to 9/11

75 points by altotrees 10y ago

subliminalpanda 10y ago
daily mail version of the story: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3549402/Fresh-evidence-links-Saudi-government-9-11-Flight-certificate-bomber-embassy-envelope-buried-underground.html http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3549402/Fresh-eviden...
- dang 10y ago
  Since the submitted URL (http://www.theaustralian.com.au/news/world/the-times/saudi-diplomats-linked-to-september-11-terror-plot/news-story/66592c608fb4b63e577c9a3a086c3b43 http://www.theaustralian.com.au/news/world/the-times/saudi-d...) is blocked, we've switched to this one for the time being. I tremble, because any Daily Mail article provokes a storm on HN, let alone one about 9-11. But the article appears to be substantive and to contain new information, and those are our criteria. So let's see what happens. If anyone finds a more substantive article we can change the URL again.
  - astazangasta 10y ago
    Here is the original blog post they are quoting/paraphrasing: https://28pages.org/2016/04/19/exclusive-a-buried-envelope-buried-questions-your-first-look-inside-declassified-document-17/ https://28pages.org/2016/04/19/exclusive-a-buried-envelope-b...
    - nl 10y ago
      Whilst the address of this site made me assume it's a conspiracy theory site, it seems pretty level headed and I think it is worth reading.
      - dang 10y ago
        It looks like you're right, but my spidey sense is that it won't go over on HN, even god help us by comparison with the Daily Mail.
squegles 10y ago
This is blocked behind a paywall.
- altotrees 10y ago
  It was not the first time I viewed it, but it seems to be now, apologies. There is a non-paywall version available via Google. I tried to link to it here, but it throws the paywall up.
  - SyneRyder 10y ago
    For future reference, that's what the tiny 'web' link does at the top of this page - it will search Google for the article title, so you can clickthrough from Google. The Australian's article title (before the link was changed) was "Saudi diplomats linked to September 11 terror plot".
gumby 10y ago
I find the envelope part unconvincing. I am just as likely to re use an old envelope myself for random documents.
- mikeash 10y ago
  Seriously. For all we know, this envelope originally contained a "happy birthday" letter, or a notice of tax delinquency or something. Unless there's more to it, this no more indicates a link to the Saudi government than a letter from the IRS to me indicates my activities are linked to the US government. And then these guys manage to write how many paragraphs about this? Sheesh.
- astazangasta 10y ago
  The original post says: >Since people often re-use envelopes and citizens of any country may have legitimate reasons for correspondence with the embassies of their government in foreign countries they live in, the Saudi embassy envelope isn’t by itself conclusive of anything. 28Pages.org couldn’t find any other history of the FBI’s find or of the government’s evaluation of its significance.
godgod 10y ago
The cat is out of the bag now. 9/11 was an inside job.
nl 10y ago
Just to make it clear to everyone: The US has done a really good job of (I assume deliberately) screwing the Saudis over the last couple of years. Firstly the Iran agreement has shown them nothing is off the table, secondly the US shale oil has given the US maneuvering room by crashing the oil market, and finally this set of "leaks" is showing the Saudis that they had better fall in line. Exactly what the US wants isn't clear to me though. Maybe cutting off funds to ISIS?
- jqm 10y ago
  You could be right, but it's a familial monarchy in ownership of a country. One that behaves pretty badly as well. So if it is a screwing, it seems the very very least that they deserve.
  - xbmcuser 10y ago
    The family is going through internal conflict at the moment as well. Looking at today's world the Chinese curse comes to my mind may you live in interesting times.
- EvanPlaice 10y ago
  From what I understand, much of the dogma and propaganda used to recruit religious extremists is sourced from SA universities, and academia. The people behind it hold a priviliged position in SA society due to the culture's emphasis on religious values and the nation's role as the center of Islam (ie Mecca). It's not necessarily the fault of the ruling family (although the ruling family may be sympathetic to the cause) but the propagation of Islamic fundamentalist dogma has become an international problem leading to the deaths of hundreds of thousands of innocents. If SA wants to remain in good standing with the rest of the world the ruling family will need to take action or suffer the consequences. You don't win an ideological war by going after suicide bombers, you starve and alienate the few Developing and broadcasting the message to the impressionable youth. SA shit the bed and they were previously given a 'free pass' because their control over oil supply. Meanwhile the US has dramatically shifted the energy production landscape where SA's dominant position is no longer a serious threat. What was previously their greatest strength is now their greatest weakness. They're stuck between a rock and a hard place. Acknowledge that violence motivated by religious dogma is unacceptable and take action to fight it, or watch their enemies grow stronger each passing day with growing support from the West.
brbsix 10y ago
Is mail sent from foreign embassies within the U.S. protected in any way, similar to the contents of a diplomatic bag? Does it make any sense that someone associated with the Saudi Embassy in D.C. would use an official letter to exfil sensitive documents like the pilot certificate? Sure doesn't seem like a wise move, but some sort of legal protections might make the scenario more plausible.
- dsl 10y ago
  Embassies worldwide often mail letters (party invitations, a check to pay for power, etc) using the postal services of host countries. The vast majority transmit anything sensitive by diplomatic courier. I suspect in this case the document was simply placed in an envelope and not actually mailed, while the individual responsible didn't realize the consequences of using an branded envelope.
brentm 10y ago
Seems a little fishy. I would expect a greater level of operational security from a Saudi Arabian official in the position to be involved here. If you knew the long term plan why would you ever hand someone a key piece of evidence in an envelope bearing your own information? Even if you didn't personally know the long term plan, ensuring the certificate is untraceable in all forms seems like something you'd of been made to understand.
- dsl 10y ago
  You'd be really surprised. In a theocracy such as Saudi Arabia where individuals are born into power, the hubris is overwhelming. They believe they are above all consequences (which has shown to be true thus far), and have little concern for operational security.
nherment 10y ago
The daily mail strike again !
nickpsecurity 10y ago
A British friend told me to mostly ignore articles from The Daily Mail because they were British equivalent of US tabloids like National Enquirier. Worth keeping in mind here.
- lucideer 10y ago
  This website gives a good overview of the quality of its articles http://kill-or-cure.herokuapp.com/ http://kill-or-cure.herokuapp.com/
  - nickpsecurity 10y ago
    Oh... my... God... It's worse than I thought.
suprjami 10y ago
> Victims' families have been pushing Congress for the right to sue Saudi Arabia over the death of their loved ones God bless America. The default response to everything is to sue.
- mikeash 10y ago
  What's wrong with this? If SA was indeed responsible for these attacks, shouldn't they be held liable for compensation to the victims' families?
  - NeutronBoy 10y ago
    Wouldn't this be a slippery slope, for example leading citizens in Afghanistan and Iraq sue the US government for compensation?
    - tamana 10y ago
      Sounds good.
    - mikeash 10y ago
      I'm guessing there is a legal difference between a military action carried out within international law (such as it is) and a terror attack.
- deleted 10y ago
  [deleted]
nikolay 10y ago
Just watch this: https://www.facebook.com/paul.j.watson.71/videos/10154130107166171/ https://www.facebook.com/paul.j.watson.71/videos/10154130107...
Angostura 10y ago
I never thought I would see a Daily Mail article on Hacker News http://shouldireadthedailymail.com http://shouldireadthedailymail.com
the0nly0ne 10y ago
building 7 united 93, no plane debris "plane" strikes exact area where pentagon was doing audit of $2.3 trillion, noted missing the day before by Rumsfield... also debris don't resemble plane crash explosions in the bottom floor of WTC perfect implosion of towers Saudi govt had nothing to do with all that, real enemy is likely closer to home

75 points by altotrees 10y ago

daily mail version of the story: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3549402/Fresh-evidence-links-Saudi-government-9-11-Flight-certificate-bomber-embassy-envelope-buried-underground.html http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3549402/Fresh-eviden...

dang 10y ago
Since the submitted URL (http://www.theaustralian.com.au/news/world/the-times/saudi-diplomats-linked-to-september-11-terror-plot/news-story/66592c608fb4b63e577c9a3a086c3b43 http://www.theaustralian.com.au/news/world/the-times/saudi-d...) is blocked, we've switched to this one for the time being. I tremble, because any Daily Mail article provokes a storm on HN, let alone one about 9-11. But the article appears to be substantive and to contain new information, and those are our criteria. So let's see what happens. If anyone finds a more substantive article we can change the URL again.
- astazangasta 10y ago
  Here is the original blog post they are quoting/paraphrasing: https://28pages.org/2016/04/19/exclusive-a-buried-envelope-buried-questions-your-first-look-inside-declassified-document-17/ https://28pages.org/2016/04/19/exclusive-a-buried-envelope-b...
  - nl 10y ago
    Whilst the address of this site made me assume it's a conspiracy theory site, it seems pretty level headed and I think it is worth reading.
    - dang 10y ago
      It looks like you're right, but my spidey sense is that it won't go over on HN, even god help us by comparison with the Daily Mail.

squegles 10y ago

This is blocked behind a paywall.

altotrees 10y ago
It was not the first time I viewed it, but it seems to be now, apologies. There is a non-paywall version available via Google. I tried to link to it here, but it throws the paywall up.
- SyneRyder 10y ago
  For future reference, that's what the tiny 'web' link does at the top of this page - it will search Google for the article title, so you can clickthrough from Google. The Australian's article title (before the link was changed) was "Saudi diplomats linked to September 11 terror plot".

gumby 10y ago

I find the envelope part unconvincing. I am just as likely to re use an old envelope myself for random documents.

mikeash 10y ago
Seriously. For all we know, this envelope originally contained a "happy birthday" letter, or a notice of tax delinquency or something. Unless there's more to it, this no more indicates a link to the Saudi government than a letter from the IRS to me indicates my activities are linked to the US government. And then these guys manage to write how many paragraphs about this? Sheesh.
astazangasta 10y ago
The original post says: >Since people often re-use envelopes and citizens of any country may have legitimate reasons for correspondence with the embassies of their government in foreign countries they live in, the Saudi embassy envelope isn’t by itself conclusive of anything. 28Pages.org couldn’t find any other history of the FBI’s find or of the government’s evaluation of its significance.

godgod 10y ago

The cat is out of the bag now. 9/11 was an inside job.

nl 10y ago

Just to make it clear to everyone: The US has done a really good job of (I assume deliberately) screwing the Saudis over the last couple of years. Firstly the Iran agreement has shown them nothing is off the table, secondly the US shale oil has given the US maneuvering room by crashing the oil market, and finally this set of "leaks" is showing the Saudis that they had better fall in line. Exactly what the US wants isn't clear to me though. Maybe cutting off funds to ISIS?

jqm 10y ago
You could be right, but it's a familial monarchy in ownership of a country. One that behaves pretty badly as well. So if it is a screwing, it seems the very very least that they deserve.
- xbmcuser 10y ago
  The family is going through internal conflict at the moment as well. Looking at today's world the Chinese curse comes to my mind may you live in interesting times.
EvanPlaice 10y ago
From what I understand, much of the dogma and propaganda used to recruit religious extremists is sourced from SA universities, and academia. The people behind it hold a priviliged position in SA society due to the culture's emphasis on religious values and the nation's role as the center of Islam (ie Mecca). It's not necessarily the fault of the ruling family (although the ruling family may be sympathetic to the cause) but the propagation of Islamic fundamentalist dogma has become an international problem leading to the deaths of hundreds of thousands of innocents. If SA wants to remain in good standing with the rest of the world the ruling family will need to take action or suffer the consequences. You don't win an ideological war by going after suicide bombers, you starve and alienate the few Developing and broadcasting the message to the impressionable youth. SA shit the bed and they were previously given a 'free pass' because their control over oil supply. Meanwhile the US has dramatically shifted the energy production landscape where SA's dominant position is no longer a serious threat. What was previously their greatest strength is now their greatest weakness. They're stuck between a rock and a hard place. Acknowledge that violence motivated by religious dogma is unacceptable and take action to fight it, or watch their enemies grow stronger each passing day with growing support from the West.

brbsix 10y ago

Is mail sent from foreign embassies within the U.S. protected in any way, similar to the contents of a diplomatic bag? Does it make any sense that someone associated with the Saudi Embassy in D.C. would use an official letter to exfil sensitive documents like the pilot certificate? Sure doesn't seem like a wise move, but some sort of legal protections might make the scenario more plausible.

dsl 10y ago
Embassies worldwide often mail letters (party invitations, a check to pay for power, etc) using the postal services of host countries. The vast majority transmit anything sensitive by diplomatic courier. I suspect in this case the document was simply placed in an envelope and not actually mailed, while the individual responsible didn't realize the consequences of using an branded envelope.

brentm 10y ago

Seems a little fishy. I would expect a greater level of operational security from a Saudi Arabian official in the position to be involved here. If you knew the long term plan why would you ever hand someone a key piece of evidence in an envelope bearing your own information? Even if you didn't personally know the long term plan, ensuring the certificate is untraceable in all forms seems like something you'd of been made to understand.

dsl 10y ago
You'd be really surprised. In a theocracy such as Saudi Arabia where individuals are born into power, the hubris is overwhelming. They believe they are above all consequences (which has shown to be true thus far), and have little concern for operational security.

nherment 10y ago

The daily mail strike again !

nickpsecurity 10y ago

A British friend told me to mostly ignore articles from The Daily Mail because they were British equivalent of US tabloids like National Enquirier. Worth keeping in mind here.

lucideer 10y ago
This website gives a good overview of the quality of its articles http://kill-or-cure.herokuapp.com/ http://kill-or-cure.herokuapp.com/
- nickpsecurity 10y ago
  Oh... my... God... It's worse than I thought.

suprjami 10y ago

> Victims' families have been pushing Congress for the right to sue Saudi Arabia over the death of their loved ones God bless America. The default response to everything is to sue.

mikeash 10y ago
What's wrong with this? If SA was indeed responsible for these attacks, shouldn't they be held liable for compensation to the victims' families?
- NeutronBoy 10y ago
  Wouldn't this be a slippery slope, for example leading citizens in Afghanistan and Iraq sue the US government for compensation?
  - tamana 10y ago
    Sounds good.
  - mikeash 10y ago
    I'm guessing there is a legal difference between a military action carried out within international law (such as it is) and a terror attack.
deleted 10y ago
[deleted]

nikolay 10y ago

Just watch this: https://www.facebook.com/paul.j.watson.71/videos/10154130107166171/ https://www.facebook.com/paul.j.watson.71/videos/10154130107...

Angostura 10y ago

I never thought I would see a Daily Mail article on Hacker News http://shouldireadthedailymail.com http://shouldireadthedailymail.com

the0nly0ne 10y ago

building 7 united 93, no plane debris "plane" strikes exact area where pentagon was doing audit of $2.3 trillion, noted missing the day before by Rumsfield... also debris don't resemble plane crash explosions in the bottom floor of WTC perfect implosion of towers Saudi govt had nothing to do with all that, real enemy is likely closer to home