7 ms·

Yes, it happens all the time on Amazon. Not only Amazon itself, but also other companies observing hot sellers (there is an API for that), then "cloning" the it

by bitL 11y ago

Yes, it happens all the time on Amazon. Not only Amazon itself, but also other companies observing hot sellers (there is an API for that), then "cloning" the item and ordering manufacturing in Shenzhen. If you complain to Amazon, your selling privileges might be removed... Amazon desperately needs a competitor.

eganist 11y ago
Yup, and they've (as far as I've heard -- could be wrong) threatened to blacklist sellers who move to upstarts like Jet or even if they sell more prominently on eBay. Perhaps I don't know the definition of anticompetitive, but I feel like this fits the bill.
- ikeboy 11y ago
  I haven't heard that. They have a rule that you can't sell items elsewhere for less than you're selling them on Amazon for, but otherwise there's no restrictions.
  - eganist 11y ago
    The Jet threat came to a friend of mine, but I think you're right regarding selling items for less. There are a few mitigations for that specific restriction which have allowed some sellers to continue selling on multiple channels, but though some are likely obvious, I'm pretty sure I signed my right away to talk about said mitigations in public. If not, I'll reply back with more. Will have to check.
  - Someone1234 11y ago
    > They have a rule that you can't sell items elsewhere That's a pretty anti-competitive rule if true. Essentially it means you cannot sell on Jet.com because of how Jet.com's pricing is calculacted (any product COULD be cheaper on there if you stack enough of them).
    - ikeboy 11y ago
      You can limit the quantity on Jet, and you can put the price high enough that even with stacking it comes at to parity with Amazon. Or you could have similar stacking discounts by creating multipacks on Amazon. See https://www.amazon.com/gp/help/customer/display.html?nodeId=1161240 https://www.amazon.com/gp/help/customer/display.html?nodeId=... near the end.
  - bitL 11y ago
    Form a Nevada-based LLC specifically for selling on Jet for $500; ignore Amazon.
    - ikeboy 11y ago
      Sure, as long as they aren't the same name, and you have a way to ship those orders separately from Amazon ones. But then don't complain if Amazon finds out and bans you.
      - bitL 11y ago
        Usual stuff when dealing with Amazon - never use the same browser/IP address/geographical location with two different accounts. Use different VPNs for different accounts/companies. Doable. Only the paranoid survive.
      - gherkin0 11y ago
        > and you have a way to ship those orders separately from Amazon ones What do you mean by this? How likely would it be for a seller to even be in a position to ship orders from multiple websites in the same box? And how would Amazon find out without buying things on competitor websites and checking return addresses?
        ikeboy 11y ago
        >How likely would it be for a seller to even be in a position to ship orders from multiple websites in the same box? And how would Amazon find out without buying things on competitor websites and checking return addresses? Well firstly if you do something stupid like FBA multi-channel fulfilment, AZ may catch on. I don't mean shipping different orders together, I mean shipping from the same warehouse. If the value is significant, I wouldn't put it past amazon to place a test order. Probably unlikely, but when you're breaking your business agreements, do it properly. I have heard horror stories of people doing well selling some product buying from the manufacturer, and Amazon went to the manufacturer and bought on condition they don't sell the product to anyone else.
jhall1468 11y ago
> If you complain to Amazon About what, exactly? Amazon isn't in the business of deciding trademark/copyright/patent disputes. If a clone of a product is violating IP, then you need to handle it legally. If there is no IP to protect, then you made a mistake.
- bitL 11y ago
  Sure, but we all know costs of a litigation which most sellers on Amazon can't afford - Amazon takes most of the profit, 15% default fees leave very little to normal sellers, usually under 5% as the (re-)pricing competition is now algorithmic, resembling HFT. Then if you want to have your product featured on Amazon (meaning your offer will be the default one even if it is more expensive than somebody else's), you need to contact the category manager and it's up to their discretion to decide (which reeks of a high potential of corruption/profit sharing etc). On one hand it's pretty cool you can automate price responses and very beneficial to the customer, on the other the game has an increasing risk of being rigged.
  - jhall1468 11y ago
    > Sure, but we all know costs of a litigation which most sellers on Amazon can't afford That's an excellent argument for changing how patent litigation works, but that has nothing to do with Amazon. > Amazon takes most of the profit, 15% default fees leave very little to normal sellers The trade-off being potentially billions of eyes on your product. Again, that has nothing to do with IP.
- vtlynch 11y ago
  No. If Amazon is willfully allowing clones that violate IP or other rights, then it is 100% in their interest to take action on that.
  - toomuchtodo 11y ago
    It's only a clone if they're violating a brand or other trademark. Otherwise, folks are just upset that their product has now turned into a commodity.
knowaveragejoe 11y ago
In theory though, if Amazon is making a superior product that's cheaper, isn't that what competition is supposed to achieve? I've bought a few AmazonBasics(cables, mostly) and have been pleased with the quality, but it could be radically different with other products.
- Bjorkbat 11y ago
  But that's the thing, it's a little bit questionable for Amazon to be a competitor. They started out as a partner that offered a retail platform for Rain Design, only to turn around and come up with a cheaper product. Even though it's perfectly legal, there's still an expectation of trust, which they've violated. Would you sell products on a platform knowing that if you were too successful the people operating the platform would turn around and come out with a cheaper product? I wouldn't.
  - chrisgd 11y ago
    It is questionable because no one has been able to do it before. Free markets yada yada. . . I would sell a product until I couldn't sell any more regardless of the risk. If only copyrights on media properties were this fluid.
    - mintone 11y ago
      Absolutely not true. Supermarket own-brand has been around for years and years, along with department store own-brands. The original brand sells based on brand reputation and (perceived) quality of product. This is exactly the same.
      - deelowe 11y ago
        No only that, walmart will use their purchasing power to force manufacturers to make products specifically for them. Examples of this include things like specific SKUs that are smaller so that walmart can sell similar products at a lower price (e.g. 12oz versus 16oz).
      - 11y ago
mooreds 11y ago
How is this different than the private labels of major grocery stores?
- tamana 11y ago
  Private label products are generally made by the same manufacturer as premium label.
  - mooreds 11y ago
    So if Amazon contracted with same manufacturer and just took some of the margin for distribution, that'd be OK (or at least less bad)?
    - Falcon9 11y ago
      Yeah, most manufacturers would be happy with that deal. It isn't what Amazon is doing though. When I sell to CostCo, I'm very happy to manufacture their house-branded vitamin C in exchange for them carrying my premium name brand vitamin C in stores as well. I make money on both products. (Heck, I as the manufacturer pay money out of my own pocket to advertise that CostCo branded vitamin C.)
      - roasm 11y ago
        How do we know that this isn't what Amazon is doing? Maybe they're not doing it with the specific product in the original post, but they're not directly manufacturing all the products under their brand. They're going to some supplier/manufacturer. Private label manufacturing deals are as secretive as possible so the owner of the market (in this case, Amazon) can change the supplier when it suits them giving them leverage in the negotiation. I'd bet you can find that exact AmazonBasics cable you just bought from the same supplier with a different name on Amazon, too.

by bitL 11y ago

eganist 11y ago

Yup, and they've (as far as I've heard -- could be wrong) threatened to blacklist sellers who move to upstarts like Jet or even if they sell more prominently on eBay. Perhaps I don't know the definition of anticompetitive, but I feel like this fits the bill.

ikeboy 11y ago
I haven't heard that. They have a rule that you can't sell items elsewhere for less than you're selling them on Amazon for, but otherwise there's no restrictions.
- eganist 11y ago
  The Jet threat came to a friend of mine, but I think you're right regarding selling items for less. There are a few mitigations for that specific restriction which have allowed some sellers to continue selling on multiple channels, but though some are likely obvious, I'm pretty sure I signed my right away to talk about said mitigations in public. If not, I'll reply back with more. Will have to check.
- Someone1234 11y ago
  > They have a rule that you can't sell items elsewhere That's a pretty anti-competitive rule if true. Essentially it means you cannot sell on Jet.com because of how Jet.com's pricing is calculacted (any product COULD be cheaper on there if you stack enough of them).
  - ikeboy 11y ago
    You can limit the quantity on Jet, and you can put the price high enough that even with stacking it comes at to parity with Amazon. Or you could have similar stacking discounts by creating multipacks on Amazon. See https://www.amazon.com/gp/help/customer/display.html?nodeId=1161240 https://www.amazon.com/gp/help/customer/display.html?nodeId=... near the end.
- bitL 11y ago
  Form a Nevada-based LLC specifically for selling on Jet for $500; ignore Amazon.
  - ikeboy 11y ago
    Sure, as long as they aren't the same name, and you have a way to ship those orders separately from Amazon ones. But then don't complain if Amazon finds out and bans you.
    - bitL 11y ago
      Usual stuff when dealing with Amazon - never use the same browser/IP address/geographical location with two different accounts. Use different VPNs for different accounts/companies. Doable. Only the paranoid survive.
    - gherkin0 11y ago
      > and you have a way to ship those orders separately from Amazon ones What do you mean by this? How likely would it be for a seller to even be in a position to ship orders from multiple websites in the same box? And how would Amazon find out without buying things on competitor websites and checking return addresses?
      - ikeboy 11y ago
        >How likely would it be for a seller to even be in a position to ship orders from multiple websites in the same box? And how would Amazon find out without buying things on competitor websites and checking return addresses? Well firstly if you do something stupid like FBA multi-channel fulfilment, AZ may catch on. I don't mean shipping different orders together, I mean shipping from the same warehouse. If the value is significant, I wouldn't put it past amazon to place a test order. Probably unlikely, but when you're breaking your business agreements, do it properly. I have heard horror stories of people doing well selling some product buying from the manufacturer, and Amazon went to the manufacturer and bought on condition they don't sell the product to anyone else.

jhall1468 11y ago

> If you complain to Amazon About what, exactly? Amazon isn't in the business of deciding trademark/copyright/patent disputes. If a clone of a product is violating IP, then you need to handle it legally. If there is no IP to protect, then you made a mistake.

bitL 11y ago
Sure, but we all know costs of a litigation which most sellers on Amazon can't afford - Amazon takes most of the profit, 15% default fees leave very little to normal sellers, usually under 5% as the (re-)pricing competition is now algorithmic, resembling HFT. Then if you want to have your product featured on Amazon (meaning your offer will be the default one even if it is more expensive than somebody else's), you need to contact the category manager and it's up to their discretion to decide (which reeks of a high potential of corruption/profit sharing etc). On one hand it's pretty cool you can automate price responses and very beneficial to the customer, on the other the game has an increasing risk of being rigged.
- jhall1468 11y ago
  > Sure, but we all know costs of a litigation which most sellers on Amazon can't afford That's an excellent argument for changing how patent litigation works, but that has nothing to do with Amazon. > Amazon takes most of the profit, 15% default fees leave very little to normal sellers The trade-off being potentially billions of eyes on your product. Again, that has nothing to do with IP.
vtlynch 11y ago
No. If Amazon is willfully allowing clones that violate IP or other rights, then it is 100% in their interest to take action on that.
- toomuchtodo 11y ago
  It's only a clone if they're violating a brand or other trademark. Otherwise, folks are just upset that their product has now turned into a commodity.

knowaveragejoe 11y ago

In theory though, if Amazon is making a superior product that's cheaper, isn't that what competition is supposed to achieve? I've bought a few AmazonBasics(cables, mostly) and have been pleased with the quality, but it could be radically different with other products.

Bjorkbat 11y ago
But that's the thing, it's a little bit questionable for Amazon to be a competitor. They started out as a partner that offered a retail platform for Rain Design, only to turn around and come up with a cheaper product. Even though it's perfectly legal, there's still an expectation of trust, which they've violated. Would you sell products on a platform knowing that if you were too successful the people operating the platform would turn around and come out with a cheaper product? I wouldn't.
- chrisgd 11y ago
  It is questionable because no one has been able to do it before. Free markets yada yada. . . I would sell a product until I couldn't sell any more regardless of the risk. If only copyrights on media properties were this fluid.
  - mintone 11y ago
    Absolutely not true. Supermarket own-brand has been around for years and years, along with department store own-brands. The original brand sells based on brand reputation and (perceived) quality of product. This is exactly the same.
    - deelowe 11y ago
      No only that, walmart will use their purchasing power to force manufacturers to make products specifically for them. Examples of this include things like specific SKUs that are smaller so that walmart can sell similar products at a lower price (e.g. 12oz versus 16oz).
    - 11y ago

mooreds 11y ago

How is this different than the private labels of major grocery stores?

tamana 11y ago
Private label products are generally made by the same manufacturer as premium label.
- mooreds 11y ago
  So if Amazon contracted with same manufacturer and just took some of the margin for distribution, that'd be OK (or at least less bad)?
  - Falcon9 11y ago
    Yeah, most manufacturers would be happy with that deal. It isn't what Amazon is doing though. When I sell to CostCo, I'm very happy to manufacture their house-branded vitamin C in exchange for them carrying my premium name brand vitamin C in stores as well. I make money on both products. (Heck, I as the manufacturer pay money out of my own pocket to advertise that CostCo branded vitamin C.)
    - roasm 11y ago
      How do we know that this isn't what Amazon is doing? Maybe they're not doing it with the specific product in the original post, but they're not directly manufacturing all the products under their brand. They're going to some supplier/manufacturer. Private label manufacturing deals are as secretive as possible so the owner of the market (in this case, Amazon) can change the supplier when it suits them giving them leverage in the negotiation. I'd bet you can find that exact AmazonBasics cable you just bought from the same supplier with a different name on Amazon, too.