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>Any manufacturer can then choose to load the suite of Google apps to their device and freely add other apps as well. "Choose" is probably not the right word h

>Any manufacturer can then choose to load the suite of Google apps to their device and freely add other apps as well. "Choose" is probably not the right word here.

ocdtrekkie 11y ago
Exactly. If you don't sign Google's agreement and include Google's app bundle, your product fails in the market. You cannot successfully sell an Android smartphone today without Google Apps, unless you're in China where Google Apps isn't available.
- yulaow 11y ago
  To be more specific, you can't sell it even without just the google app store and be successful, except if you have already a very big ecosystem behind (like Amazon)
- wstrange 11y ago
  In other words, consumers really like Google Apps, and the alternative apps are not desirable. What can Google do about that?
  - gambiting 11y ago
    Give away their apps for free without any agreements, apparently. It's like trying to force Tesla to give everyone their motors, because customers want Tesla motors but can't get them without buying a product from Tesla - therefore Tesla should be forced to let other other companies build cars with their motors /s.
    - NetStrikeForce 11y ago
      People liked IE. Not everyone and not forever, but people really liked it. We all know how did that end. As an Android user, I couldn't give less fucks about G+, Hangouts, Music, Books, Sheets, Docs and probably some other me-too product launched by Google and still I have them installed in my phone and Google keeps trying to shove them down my throat. I don't need any of these for the Play store to work, that is the only place I can install software from unless I downgrade my phone's security, but apparently you imply I do. Also, Tesla is not a de-facto monopoly on several European markets, which is the problem here. If Apple or Microsoft had >80% of the market and provided the OS needed by every manufacturer (but two), then they could face similar issues.
      - soylentcola 11y ago
        I'm curious how you'd be downgrading your phone's security by installing software from a different app store or repository (or even just directly downloading it from the developer and installing it). The way I look at it, the base Android OS is free to port to whatever you want/can but to get some commercial Google products like the Play Store and some of their apps, you need to follow some other terms that allow them to make money from these commercial offerings. Either way, I find it much easier to run a Google-less Android than an Apple-less iOS and somewhat easier than a MS-less Windows. The fact that I don't have to "jailbreak" or otherwise exploit security holes to install software from other sources than the OS maker is a big reason I tend to use Android on mobile devices.
        NetStrikeForce 11y ago
        > I'm curious how you'd be downgrading your phone's security by installing software from a different app store or repository (or even just directly downloading it from the developer and installing it). I have to enable "install software from other sources", which opens the door to ANY source other than the Play store. I've got the Amazon App Store on my phone too, and for that to work I have to permit installation from any source. That's downgrading my phone's security. > Either way, I find it much easier to run a Google-less Android than an Apple-less iOS and somewhat easier than a MS-less Windows. The fact that I don't have to "jailbreak" or otherwise exploit security holes to install software from other sources than the OS maker is a big reason I tend to use Android on mobile devices. That is true. The difference is most probably the market share and how the OS is licensed to hardware OEMs (iOS is not licensed - Windows Phone I've no idea).
        tdkl 11y ago
        > I have to enable "install software from other sources", which opens the door to ANY source other than the Play store. You still have to click the .apk and install it. Same as clicking an .exe and installing it on Windows. Why would a "Store" made by Joe Random be more secure then downloading an .apk and installing it ?
- venomsnake 11y ago
  I go to great lenghts to debloat away all of google crap from my phones. It is perfectly functional
- Zhenya 11y ago
  Amazon would like to have a word with you.
nomercy400 11y ago
Google places strict rules on the phone, before you are allowed to get the license to ship the Google apps with your phone. Think of things like a locked bootloader at sale, no root at sale, but also other rules. I can even think of legal issues that might be used by Google to not endorse a phone (violating IP patents in your phone's hardware, shipping it from an embargoed country). And even then Google might decide your phone isn't worthy of their apps and not give you the license. It's more that the Google Play store has such a marketshare (monopoly) that it can make or break a competitor's phone, which I think is what the EU is challenging here.
- deelowe 11y ago
  Then the issue is the play store and not android, right? They need to stop beating around the bush if this is the case.
  - Aissen 11y ago
    It's clearly stated in the complaints, no bush here: http://europa.eu/rapid/press-release_IP-16-1492_en.htm http://europa.eu/rapid/press-release_IP-16-1492_en.htm
    - deelowe 11y ago
      Thanks. I agree that the complaints are much more clearly specified (and most of the comments in this thread are orthogonal to those complaints).
  - scholia 11y ago
    Android is a Google trademark, and if Google licenses it to you, you have to follow Google's rules. One of the rules is that you have to use Google's Play store and pre-install its proprietary apps.
Zigurd 11y ago
"Choose" is correct. OEMs can add their own apps. Those apps, like the Microsoft Office apps, can even be key to supporting other ecosystems. And not all of Google's apps are required to be preloaded on Google-logo devices. The thing an OEM can't do is sell both a Google-logo device AND a device that excludes the Google ecosystem and supports a different ecosystem on the Android platform. An OEM can, for example, sell Google logo Android devices and Windows devices and Palm OS (or what does LG call it?) devices and Tizen devices as long as they do not use Android as a basis for supporting non-Google ecosystems. Or an OEM can choose to do anything at all they want with AOSP, including supporting a non-Google ecosystem, as Amazon does. But that means you won't see an Amazon Android with Google Play Services and Google's app suite on it.

>Any manufacturer can then choose to load the suite of Google apps to their device and freely add other apps as well. "Choose" is probably not the right word here.

ocdtrekkie 11y ago

Exactly. If you don't sign Google's agreement and include Google's app bundle, your product fails in the market. You cannot successfully sell an Android smartphone today without Google Apps, unless you're in China where Google Apps isn't available.

yulaow 11y ago
To be more specific, you can't sell it even without just the google app store and be successful, except if you have already a very big ecosystem behind (like Amazon)
wstrange 11y ago
In other words, consumers really like Google Apps, and the alternative apps are not desirable. What can Google do about that?
- gambiting 11y ago
  Give away their apps for free without any agreements, apparently. It's like trying to force Tesla to give everyone their motors, because customers want Tesla motors but can't get them without buying a product from Tesla - therefore Tesla should be forced to let other other companies build cars with their motors /s.
  - NetStrikeForce 11y ago
    People liked IE. Not everyone and not forever, but people really liked it. We all know how did that end. As an Android user, I couldn't give less fucks about G+, Hangouts, Music, Books, Sheets, Docs and probably some other me-too product launched by Google and still I have them installed in my phone and Google keeps trying to shove them down my throat. I don't need any of these for the Play store to work, that is the only place I can install software from unless I downgrade my phone's security, but apparently you imply I do. Also, Tesla is not a de-facto monopoly on several European markets, which is the problem here. If Apple or Microsoft had >80% of the market and provided the OS needed by every manufacturer (but two), then they could face similar issues.
    - soylentcola 11y ago
      I'm curious how you'd be downgrading your phone's security by installing software from a different app store or repository (or even just directly downloading it from the developer and installing it). The way I look at it, the base Android OS is free to port to whatever you want/can but to get some commercial Google products like the Play Store and some of their apps, you need to follow some other terms that allow them to make money from these commercial offerings. Either way, I find it much easier to run a Google-less Android than an Apple-less iOS and somewhat easier than a MS-less Windows. The fact that I don't have to "jailbreak" or otherwise exploit security holes to install software from other sources than the OS maker is a big reason I tend to use Android on mobile devices.
      - NetStrikeForce 11y ago
        > I'm curious how you'd be downgrading your phone's security by installing software from a different app store or repository (or even just directly downloading it from the developer and installing it). I have to enable "install software from other sources", which opens the door to ANY source other than the Play store. I've got the Amazon App Store on my phone too, and for that to work I have to permit installation from any source. That's downgrading my phone's security. > Either way, I find it much easier to run a Google-less Android than an Apple-less iOS and somewhat easier than a MS-less Windows. The fact that I don't have to "jailbreak" or otherwise exploit security holes to install software from other sources than the OS maker is a big reason I tend to use Android on mobile devices. That is true. The difference is most probably the market share and how the OS is licensed to hardware OEMs (iOS is not licensed - Windows Phone I've no idea).
        tdkl 11y ago
        > I have to enable "install software from other sources", which opens the door to ANY source other than the Play store. You still have to click the .apk and install it. Same as clicking an .exe and installing it on Windows. Why would a "Store" made by Joe Random be more secure then downloading an .apk and installing it ?
venomsnake 11y ago
I go to great lenghts to debloat away all of google crap from my phones. It is perfectly functional
Zhenya 11y ago
Amazon would like to have a word with you.

nomercy400 11y ago

Google places strict rules on the phone, before you are allowed to get the license to ship the Google apps with your phone. Think of things like a locked bootloader at sale, no root at sale, but also other rules. I can even think of legal issues that might be used by Google to not endorse a phone (violating IP patents in your phone's hardware, shipping it from an embargoed country). And even then Google might decide your phone isn't worthy of their apps and not give you the license. It's more that the Google Play store has such a marketshare (monopoly) that it can make or break a competitor's phone, which I think is what the EU is challenging here.

deelowe 11y ago
Then the issue is the play store and not android, right? They need to stop beating around the bush if this is the case.
- Aissen 11y ago
  It's clearly stated in the complaints, no bush here: http://europa.eu/rapid/press-release_IP-16-1492_en.htm http://europa.eu/rapid/press-release_IP-16-1492_en.htm
  - deelowe 11y ago
    Thanks. I agree that the complaints are much more clearly specified (and most of the comments in this thread are orthogonal to those complaints).
- scholia 11y ago
  Android is a Google trademark, and if Google licenses it to you, you have to follow Google's rules. One of the rules is that you have to use Google's Play store and pre-install its proprietary apps.

Zigurd 11y ago

"Choose" is correct. OEMs can add their own apps. Those apps, like the Microsoft Office apps, can even be key to supporting other ecosystems. And not all of Google's apps are required to be preloaded on Google-logo devices. The thing an OEM can't do is sell both a Google-logo device AND a device that excludes the Google ecosystem and supports a different ecosystem on the Android platform. An OEM can, for example, sell Google logo Android devices and Windows devices and Palm OS (or what does LG call it?) devices and Tizen devices as long as they do not use Android as a basis for supporting non-Google ecosystems. Or an OEM can choose to do anything at all they want with AOSP, including supporting a non-Google ecosystem, as Amazon does. But that means you won't see an Amazon Android with Google Play Services and Google's app suite on it.