4 ms·

Please, don't call it 'dieselgate' as it is only a VW group fraud.

by lugus35 10y ago

noja 10y ago
No it's not.
JanezStupar 10y ago
Yes? > The VW scandal more generally raised awareness over the high levels of pollution being emitted by diesel vehicles built by a wide range of carmakers, including Volvo, Renault, Mercedes, Jeep, Hyundai, Citroen, BMW, Mazda, Fiat, Ford and Peugeot.[22][23] Independent tests carried out by ADAC proved that, under normal driving conditions, diesel vehicles including the Volvo S60, Renault's Espace Energy and the Jeep Renegade, exceeded legal European emission limits for nitrogen oxide (NOx) by more than 10 times. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volkswagen_emissions_scandal#Automotive_industry_and_other_commentators https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volkswagen_emissions_scandal#A...
- pgeorgi 10y ago
  Emission testing fraud at Mitsubishi (incl cars for Nissan): http://www.theguardian.com/business/2016/apr/20/mitsubishi-motors-mishandled-fuel-economy-tests http://www.theguardian.com/business/2016/apr/20/mitsubishi-m... Kia was also namedropped in the article. I suppose it's easier to compile a list of manufacturers not involved in messing with the numbers...
- makomk 10y ago
  I think that's probably a little misleading. The European emissions limits are based on a specific driving cycle that's known to be kinder than real-world driving. If you use a more realistic test cycle with more aggressive acceleration you're going to get worse efficiency and pollution than the NEDC tests.
  - remael 10y ago
    Exactly. Those are two different, though related, issues. 1. Cheating on the NEDC tests. 2. Emission limits are not coupled to real driving scenarios. Edit: This is important to distinguish. 1 is illegal, 2 is the law but maybe changed.
- vetinari 10y ago
  Apples and oranges. EPA test cycle is different than normal driving conditions. It has been a subject of complaints for a long time, that the paper mileage is divorced from reality (and is especially troubling for corporate owners, when your tax admitted expenses are only up to the paper mileage; everything above it gets taxed).
- lugus35 10y ago
  Volvo, Renault, Mercedes, Jeep, Hyundai, Citroen, BMW, Mazda, Fiat, Ford and Peugeot have not used fraud to pass the tests. You are citing studies using different test conditions than the official test.
  - JanezStupar 10y ago
    While you are technically correct (the best kind of correct!) - we as consumers have still been deceived into thinking we are purchasing and driving vehicles that we thought were significantly cleaner than what they really are. But to say that the manufacturers have no fault in the way the tests are structured is a bit... disingenuous. Don't you think?
    - vmarsy 10y ago
      That's because no benchmark is perfect. You're also being tricked to buy a "twice faster cpu" on your latest phone because it showed twice better performance on a particular benchmark. But There's a big difference between the company that make engineering decisions that try to improve the results on the benchmark (because after all that's what consumers get fooled with) and the one that would have a "if (benchmark_in_progress) cheat; "
tychuz 10y ago
What's with random_problem + gate formula? I don't get it.
- richmarr 10y ago
  Nixon, baby. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Watergate_scandal https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Watergate_scandal
- noja 10y ago
  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_scandals_with_%22-gate%22_suffix https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_scandals_with_%22-gate...
- lmm 10y ago
  The Watergate scandal (named after the hotel where things took place) was such a big thing that the press/public developed a habit of relating subsequent scandals to it by giving them a name ending in -gate.
  - pluma 10y ago
    You mean Watergategate? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vB9JgxhXW5w https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vB9JgxhXW5w
- ccozan 10y ago
  It's coming from a scandal involving Nixon. See here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Watergate_scandal https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Watergate_scandal
  - andybak 10y ago
    Maybe a touch frivolous but definitely pertinent: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vB9JgxhXW5w https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vB9JgxhXW5w
octo_t 10y ago
literally just today, there's news that Mitsubishi were doing the same thing - http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-36089558 http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-36089558
jessriedel 10y ago
"Watergate" didn't apply to every guest of that hotel...

Please, don't call it 'dieselgate' as it is only a VW group fraud.

by lugus35 10y ago

Please, don't call it 'dieselgate' as it is only a VW group fraud.

noja 10y ago

No it's not.

JanezStupar 10y ago

Yes? > The VW scandal more generally raised awareness over the high levels of pollution being emitted by diesel vehicles built by a wide range of carmakers, including Volvo, Renault, Mercedes, Jeep, Hyundai, Citroen, BMW, Mazda, Fiat, Ford and Peugeot.[22][23] Independent tests carried out by ADAC proved that, under normal driving conditions, diesel vehicles including the Volvo S60, Renault's Espace Energy and the Jeep Renegade, exceeded legal European emission limits for nitrogen oxide (NOx) by more than 10 times. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volkswagen_emissions_scandal#Automotive_industry_and_other_commentators https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volkswagen_emissions_scandal#A...

pgeorgi 10y ago
Emission testing fraud at Mitsubishi (incl cars for Nissan): http://www.theguardian.com/business/2016/apr/20/mitsubishi-motors-mishandled-fuel-economy-tests http://www.theguardian.com/business/2016/apr/20/mitsubishi-m... Kia was also namedropped in the article. I suppose it's easier to compile a list of manufacturers not involved in messing with the numbers...
makomk 10y ago
I think that's probably a little misleading. The European emissions limits are based on a specific driving cycle that's known to be kinder than real-world driving. If you use a more realistic test cycle with more aggressive acceleration you're going to get worse efficiency and pollution than the NEDC tests.
- remael 10y ago
  Exactly. Those are two different, though related, issues. 1. Cheating on the NEDC tests. 2. Emission limits are not coupled to real driving scenarios. Edit: This is important to distinguish. 1 is illegal, 2 is the law but maybe changed.
vetinari 10y ago
Apples and oranges. EPA test cycle is different than normal driving conditions. It has been a subject of complaints for a long time, that the paper mileage is divorced from reality (and is especially troubling for corporate owners, when your tax admitted expenses are only up to the paper mileage; everything above it gets taxed).
lugus35 10y ago
Volvo, Renault, Mercedes, Jeep, Hyundai, Citroen, BMW, Mazda, Fiat, Ford and Peugeot have not used fraud to pass the tests. You are citing studies using different test conditions than the official test.
- JanezStupar 10y ago
  While you are technically correct (the best kind of correct!) - we as consumers have still been deceived into thinking we are purchasing and driving vehicles that we thought were significantly cleaner than what they really are. But to say that the manufacturers have no fault in the way the tests are structured is a bit... disingenuous. Don't you think?
  - vmarsy 10y ago
    That's because no benchmark is perfect. You're also being tricked to buy a "twice faster cpu" on your latest phone because it showed twice better performance on a particular benchmark. But There's a big difference between the company that make engineering decisions that try to improve the results on the benchmark (because after all that's what consumers get fooled with) and the one that would have a "if (benchmark_in_progress) cheat; "

tychuz 10y ago

What's with random_problem + gate formula? I don't get it.

richmarr 10y ago
Nixon, baby. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Watergate_scandal https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Watergate_scandal
noja 10y ago
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_scandals_with_%22-gate%22_suffix https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_scandals_with_%22-gate...
lmm 10y ago
The Watergate scandal (named after the hotel where things took place) was such a big thing that the press/public developed a habit of relating subsequent scandals to it by giving them a name ending in -gate.
- pluma 10y ago
  You mean Watergategate? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vB9JgxhXW5w https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vB9JgxhXW5w
ccozan 10y ago
It's coming from a scandal involving Nixon. See here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Watergate_scandal https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Watergate_scandal
- andybak 10y ago
  Maybe a touch frivolous but definitely pertinent: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vB9JgxhXW5w https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vB9JgxhXW5w

octo_t 10y ago

literally just today, there's news that Mitsubishi were doing the same thing - http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-36089558 http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-36089558

jessriedel 10y ago

"Watergate" didn't apply to every guest of that hotel...