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Can the secret to the country’s happiness be found in its communal pools? If you use suicide rate as an indicator, Iceland doesn't seem to be so happy. https:

Can the secret to the country’s happiness be found in its communal pools? If you use suicide rate as an indicator, Iceland doesn't seem to be so happy. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_suicide_rate https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_suicide_r...

viraptor 11y ago
Iceland gets next to no sun November-February, leading people to depression, drinking, etc. It would likely affect you much more than the winter you know from other countries. If anything, the social aspect of going to a hot pool in the winter is likely to keep people from committing more suicides.
- Ressuder 11y ago
  Should be remembered too that cultural taboos have a big impact on whether suicides will actually be reported as such.
  - danieltillett 11y ago
    Exactly. It also affects how people commit suicide too. If there is a big cultural taboo against suicide then people will choose ways that look like accidents - say driving under a truck.
- ptaipale 11y ago
  This explanation of little sun => suicides doesn't work, at least as directly as most would think: Research on seasonal effects on suicide rates suggests that the prevalence of suicide is greatest during the late spring and early summer months, despite the common belief that suicide rates peak during the cold and dark months of the winter season. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seasonal_effects_on_suicide_rates https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seasonal_effects_on_suicide_ra...
  - reacweb 11y ago
    Lack of sun causes more people to be depressive. Non depressive people are happier during late spring and early summer. Seeing other people happy increases the tendency to suicide in depressive people.
  - nabla9 11y ago
    People with some level seasonal affective disorder (SAD) and people with depression react to change differently. For people suffering from SAD symptoms typically start in the fall and stay during winter months. For people with clinical depression it's the springtime that throws them off. I live in Finland and I have clear SAD symptoms in the fall and winter (very tired and low energy). Using Philips light therapy lamp completely fixes it for me as does trip to Spain in the winter.
  - Raphmedia 11y ago
    As somebody that lives somewhere where SAD is a real thing, I can perhaps offer a glimpse into this. During the winter, it's so dark and cold, you get depressed. You stop going out, and you stop socializing. It's not that bad, at least you don't feel so worthless for not going outside since everything is awful outside. Then spring comes along and everyone starts going outside. The weather is very good now. Everyone is having fun. Everyone but you. You are still stuck inside, afraid to come out, all depressed. That's the point where suicide start to seem like an option.
- drzaiusapelord 11y ago
  If that was true, Iceland's neighbors Norway and Sweden would have similar rates, but they're actually significantly lower and closer to countries like the USA. Iceland also has the highest percentage of people on anti-depressants in Europe. Nearly twice the rate of the EU average to be exact! I think a lot of these "Isn't Iceland wonderful" articles are poorly sourced pop-science junk designed to get ad impressions. Iceland has a lot of problems and is a much more complex country than many give it credit for. Its not a bunch of elf worshippers living in the forest. They're a complex modern people with all the problems modernity brings. I also believe a lot of people with leftist political beliefs don't want to discuss the downsides of the Scandinavian welfare state as these criticism are, of course, critical of their own personal politics. So narratives that are critical of these politics don't get upvoted on sites like HN and Reddit which are largely left-leaning. Its also worth mentioning that national happiness is tied very closely with income inequality, not pools. Even then, you can have a high level of general happiness and still have a relatively high suicide rate for reasons not fully understood, but I imagine self reporting of how 'happy' you are isn't granular enough to really tell us very much. There's an ugly "noble savage" narrative to Icelandic people that I personally find offensive. I wish the media would stop pushing that narrative but I can understand that it gets ad impressions the same way Native American "noble savage" stories were so popular a hundred years ago in the USA. The reality is that both are reductionist and inaccurate and gloss over the very significant negative aspects of both their cultures. Cites: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_suicide_rate https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_suicide_r... http://www.oecd-ilibrary.org/sites/9789264183896-en/03/11/index.html;jsessionid=3r1a233qn9oih.x-oecd-live-02?contentType=&itemId=/content/chapter/9789264183896-38-en&containerItemId=%2Fcontent%2Fchapter%2F9789264183896-38-en&accessItemIds=/content/book/9789264183896-en&mimeType=text/html%29?&_csp_=45f4df11dc99cd2019aa9aa30865f74f http://www.oecd-ilibrary.org/sites/9789264183896-en/03/11/in... http://healthland.time.com/2011/04/25/why-the-happiest-states-have-the-highest-suicide-rates/ http://healthland.time.com/2011/04/25/why-the-happiest-state...
  - ajmurmann 11y ago
    Can people who are down voting this please explain edgy? I find the comparison to neighboring counties very ingesting and would like to hear why people disagree.
deleted 11y ago
[deleted]
luxpir 11y ago
It's likely that countries that experience the most depression have also developed and iterated through a range of cultural cures. We can all learn something from them.
tikumo 11y ago
more suicides means less depressed people walking around, so that could make a happier society.. (suicide boots from Futurama anyone?)
- wavefunction 11y ago
  Suicide and suicidal ideation seem to act as a transmittable disease. At least that's what indigenous populations in the US are facing, an epidemic of suicides brought on by the loss of loved ones to earlier suicides. The flippant comment about a cartoon show is unwelcome from my perspective.
ptaipale 11y ago
On the other hand, it seems that suicide rates correlate poorly with results in research on happiness. For instance, compare the results of Happiness Research Institute to the suicide rates. Some of the countries with highest suicide rates are also the happiest! http://www.euronews.com/2015/07/02/finland-tops-european-countries-in-latest-happiness-survey/ http://www.euronews.com/2015/07/02/finland-tops-european-cou...
- bramen 11y ago
  You can imagine an odd pattern might develop where countries that have high suicide rates seem happier because their most depressed people irreversibly exclude themselves from the surveys. I wonder how strong the statistical effect is though.
  - ptaipale 11y ago
    In the developed countries where suicides are more common, the suicide rate is about 1-2 % of total mortality. I don't think that's enough to have any significant Darwinian impact.
- Retric 11y ago
  There is a band where people commit more suicides. To depressed and you can't really think or plan. To happy and you don't feel the need. So, oddly enough suicide is worse at the happy end of the depressed spectrum. Especially when someone goes from a deep to a more moderate depression.

viraptor 11y ago

Iceland gets next to no sun November-February, leading people to depression, drinking, etc. It would likely affect you much more than the winter you know from other countries. If anything, the social aspect of going to a hot pool in the winter is likely to keep people from committing more suicides.

Ressuder 11y ago
Should be remembered too that cultural taboos have a big impact on whether suicides will actually be reported as such.
- danieltillett 11y ago
  Exactly. It also affects how people commit suicide too. If there is a big cultural taboo against suicide then people will choose ways that look like accidents - say driving under a truck.
ptaipale 11y ago
This explanation of little sun => suicides doesn't work, at least as directly as most would think: Research on seasonal effects on suicide rates suggests that the prevalence of suicide is greatest during the late spring and early summer months, despite the common belief that suicide rates peak during the cold and dark months of the winter season. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seasonal_effects_on_suicide_rates https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seasonal_effects_on_suicide_ra...
- reacweb 11y ago
  Lack of sun causes more people to be depressive. Non depressive people are happier during late spring and early summer. Seeing other people happy increases the tendency to suicide in depressive people.
- nabla9 11y ago
  People with some level seasonal affective disorder (SAD) and people with depression react to change differently. For people suffering from SAD symptoms typically start in the fall and stay during winter months. For people with clinical depression it's the springtime that throws them off. I live in Finland and I have clear SAD symptoms in the fall and winter (very tired and low energy). Using Philips light therapy lamp completely fixes it for me as does trip to Spain in the winter.
- Raphmedia 11y ago
  As somebody that lives somewhere where SAD is a real thing, I can perhaps offer a glimpse into this. During the winter, it's so dark and cold, you get depressed. You stop going out, and you stop socializing. It's not that bad, at least you don't feel so worthless for not going outside since everything is awful outside. Then spring comes along and everyone starts going outside. The weather is very good now. Everyone is having fun. Everyone but you. You are still stuck inside, afraid to come out, all depressed. That's the point where suicide start to seem like an option.
drzaiusapelord 11y ago
If that was true, Iceland's neighbors Norway and Sweden would have similar rates, but they're actually significantly lower and closer to countries like the USA. Iceland also has the highest percentage of people on anti-depressants in Europe. Nearly twice the rate of the EU average to be exact! I think a lot of these "Isn't Iceland wonderful" articles are poorly sourced pop-science junk designed to get ad impressions. Iceland has a lot of problems and is a much more complex country than many give it credit for. Its not a bunch of elf worshippers living in the forest. They're a complex modern people with all the problems modernity brings. I also believe a lot of people with leftist political beliefs don't want to discuss the downsides of the Scandinavian welfare state as these criticism are, of course, critical of their own personal politics. So narratives that are critical of these politics don't get upvoted on sites like HN and Reddit which are largely left-leaning. Its also worth mentioning that national happiness is tied very closely with income inequality, not pools. Even then, you can have a high level of general happiness and still have a relatively high suicide rate for reasons not fully understood, but I imagine self reporting of how 'happy' you are isn't granular enough to really tell us very much. There's an ugly "noble savage" narrative to Icelandic people that I personally find offensive. I wish the media would stop pushing that narrative but I can understand that it gets ad impressions the same way Native American "noble savage" stories were so popular a hundred years ago in the USA. The reality is that both are reductionist and inaccurate and gloss over the very significant negative aspects of both their cultures. Cites: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_suicide_rate https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_suicide_r... http://www.oecd-ilibrary.org/sites/9789264183896-en/03/11/index.html;jsessionid=3r1a233qn9oih.x-oecd-live-02?contentType=&itemId=/content/chapter/9789264183896-38-en&containerItemId=%2Fcontent%2Fchapter%2F9789264183896-38-en&accessItemIds=/content/book/9789264183896-en&mimeType=text/html%29?&_csp_=45f4df11dc99cd2019aa9aa30865f74f http://www.oecd-ilibrary.org/sites/9789264183896-en/03/11/in... http://healthland.time.com/2011/04/25/why-the-happiest-states-have-the-highest-suicide-rates/ http://healthland.time.com/2011/04/25/why-the-happiest-state...
- ajmurmann 11y ago
  Can people who are down voting this please explain edgy? I find the comparison to neighboring counties very ingesting and would like to hear why people disagree.

deleted 11y ago

[deleted]

luxpir 11y ago

It's likely that countries that experience the most depression have also developed and iterated through a range of cultural cures. We can all learn something from them.

tikumo 11y ago

more suicides means less depressed people walking around, so that could make a happier society.. (suicide boots from Futurama anyone?)

wavefunction 11y ago
Suicide and suicidal ideation seem to act as a transmittable disease. At least that's what indigenous populations in the US are facing, an epidemic of suicides brought on by the loss of loved ones to earlier suicides. The flippant comment about a cartoon show is unwelcome from my perspective.

ptaipale 11y ago

On the other hand, it seems that suicide rates correlate poorly with results in research on happiness. For instance, compare the results of Happiness Research Institute to the suicide rates. Some of the countries with highest suicide rates are also the happiest! http://www.euronews.com/2015/07/02/finland-tops-european-countries-in-latest-happiness-survey/ http://www.euronews.com/2015/07/02/finland-tops-european-cou...

bramen 11y ago
You can imagine an odd pattern might develop where countries that have high suicide rates seem happier because their most depressed people irreversibly exclude themselves from the surveys. I wonder how strong the statistical effect is though.
- ptaipale 11y ago
  In the developed countries where suicides are more common, the suicide rate is about 1-2 % of total mortality. I don't think that's enough to have any significant Darwinian impact.
Retric 11y ago
There is a band where people commit more suicides. To depressed and you can't really think or plan. To happy and you don't feel the need. So, oddly enough suicide is worse at the happy end of the depressed spectrum. Especially when someone goes from a deep to a more moderate depression.