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VW 'Dieselgate' software developed at Audi in 1999: report

200 points by oinkgrr 10y ago

lugus35 10y ago
Please, don't call it 'dieselgate' as it is only a VW group fraud.
- noja 10y ago
  No it's not.
- JanezStupar 10y ago
  Yes? > The VW scandal more generally raised awareness over the high levels of pollution being emitted by diesel vehicles built by a wide range of carmakers, including Volvo, Renault, Mercedes, Jeep, Hyundai, Citroen, BMW, Mazda, Fiat, Ford and Peugeot.[22][23] Independent tests carried out by ADAC proved that, under normal driving conditions, diesel vehicles including the Volvo S60, Renault's Espace Energy and the Jeep Renegade, exceeded legal European emission limits for nitrogen oxide (NOx) by more than 10 times. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volkswagen_emissions_scandal#Automotive_industry_and_other_commentators https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volkswagen_emissions_scandal#A...
  - pgeorgi 10y ago
    Emission testing fraud at Mitsubishi (incl cars for Nissan): http://www.theguardian.com/business/2016/apr/20/mitsubishi-motors-mishandled-fuel-economy-tests http://www.theguardian.com/business/2016/apr/20/mitsubishi-m... Kia was also namedropped in the article. I suppose it's easier to compile a list of manufacturers not involved in messing with the numbers...
  - makomk 10y ago
    I think that's probably a little misleading. The European emissions limits are based on a specific driving cycle that's known to be kinder than real-world driving. If you use a more realistic test cycle with more aggressive acceleration you're going to get worse efficiency and pollution than the NEDC tests.
    - remael 10y ago
      Exactly. Those are two different, though related, issues. 1. Cheating on the NEDC tests. 2. Emission limits are not coupled to real driving scenarios. Edit: This is important to distinguish. 1 is illegal, 2 is the law but maybe changed.
  - vetinari 10y ago
    Apples and oranges. EPA test cycle is different than normal driving conditions. It has been a subject of complaints for a long time, that the paper mileage is divorced from reality (and is especially troubling for corporate owners, when your tax admitted expenses are only up to the paper mileage; everything above it gets taxed).
  - lugus35 10y ago
    Volvo, Renault, Mercedes, Jeep, Hyundai, Citroen, BMW, Mazda, Fiat, Ford and Peugeot have not used fraud to pass the tests. You are citing studies using different test conditions than the official test.
    - JanezStupar 10y ago
      While you are technically correct (the best kind of correct!) - we as consumers have still been deceived into thinking we are purchasing and driving vehicles that we thought were significantly cleaner than what they really are. But to say that the manufacturers have no fault in the way the tests are structured is a bit... disingenuous. Don't you think?
      - vmarsy 10y ago
        That's because no benchmark is perfect. You're also being tricked to buy a "twice faster cpu" on your latest phone because it showed twice better performance on a particular benchmark. But There's a big difference between the company that make engineering decisions that try to improve the results on the benchmark (because after all that's what consumers get fooled with) and the one that would have a "if (benchmark_in_progress) cheat; "
- tychuz 10y ago
  What's with random_problem + gate formula? I don't get it.
  - richmarr 10y ago
    Nixon, baby. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Watergate_scandal https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Watergate_scandal
  - noja 10y ago
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_scandals_with_%22-gate%22_suffix https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_scandals_with_%22-gate...
  - lmm 10y ago
    The Watergate scandal (named after the hotel where things took place) was such a big thing that the press/public developed a habit of relating subsequent scandals to it by giving them a name ending in -gate.
    - pluma 10y ago
      You mean Watergategate? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vB9JgxhXW5w https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vB9JgxhXW5w
  - ccozan 10y ago
    It's coming from a scandal involving Nixon. See here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Watergate_scandal https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Watergate_scandal
    - andybak 10y ago
      Maybe a touch frivolous but definitely pertinent: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vB9JgxhXW5w https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vB9JgxhXW5w
- octo_t 10y ago
  literally just today, there's news that Mitsubishi were doing the same thing - http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-36089558 http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-36089558
- jessriedel 10y ago
  "Watergate" didn't apply to every guest of that hotel...
f_allwein 10y ago
So the manipulations have been going on since 1999 (2005 for VW) and appear to have been deliberate, rather than snuck in by a small group of engineers. Will be interesting to see how VW and the other brands mentioned here get out of this. Their crisis management so far certainly does not help.
- joekrill 10y ago
  According to this article Audi developed the software in 1999 and never used it. So it's incorrect to say this has been going on since 1999 (assuming this article is correct). I guess they could still claim that this mysterious small group of engineers snuck the code, which Audi developed, into the VW ECUs.
stuaxo 10y ago
"But they never used it" ORLY ?
- buro9 10y ago
  Haven't we all created software that is never used?
aidos 10y ago
I'm actually looking at getting a car at the moment so I've been looking into this to better understand the repercussions for consumers. It's weird, VW say that if your car if affected, they'll fix it. It's a software update that a) won't affect performance and b) won't affect fuel consumption. So, why did they do it in the first place? Edit "VW confirmed the fix will not affect the performance or fuel economy of the cars, while Mueller also said the cars will pass the European emissions test (without cheating) after the fix has been installed." - http://www.autoexpress.co.uk/volkswagen/92893/vw-emissions-scandal-recalls-compensation-is-your-car-affected-latest-news http://www.autoexpress.co.uk/volkswagen/92893/vw-emissions-s...
- oinkgrr 10y ago
  The software before the update was used to detect if a car was being tested for emissions/ fuel consumption. Then it lowered power and fuel consumption. So it gave skewed figures. Which means in normal driving it was always giving more than advertised figures. So the fuel consumption has not changed from before update for normal driving. So you won't see any difference. Edit: ah my bad. Ah, it specifically relates to particulate emissions, that is not related to fuel consumption
  - icebraining 10y ago
    But then how will they pass the test?
    - adwf 10y ago
      It will still pass, they were just pushing the emissions tests lower so that the car could fit in a lower tax bracket. I don't know about every country, but in the UK you get taxed on how polluting your car is. I believe that various governments have made a promise not to increase the taxes on existing cars, as the consumers were unaware at the time of purchase.
      - tamana 10y ago
        Is VW paying the tax difference, or walking away with a government handout?
the_mitsuhiko 10y ago
I find this very confusing because the software that caused "dieselgate" was written by Bosch and other companies and not by either VW or Audi.
- Loic 10y ago
  Bosch is providing the hardware with a base software which is tuned/modified by the manufacturer. Think of it like an Arduino with a bit of software to control the opening/closing of your house door. You get in the package the hardware + example/working software and then you are free to improve it to let say, open the door if your own custom made dog detector connected to the Arduino is detecting that your dog is in front of the door.
  - the_mitsuhiko 10y ago
    > Bosch is providing the hardware with a base software which is tuned/modified by the manufacturer. All the information that I have found so far says that the engine manufacturer cannot change the software, just tweak parameters. Which means that the original test drive curve detection was provided by Bosch. This also makes sense given the fact that Bosch wrote a statement upon delivery to VW that they could not use that detection code for emission cheating. http://www.autonews.com/article/20150927/COPY01/309279989/bosch-warned-vw-about-illegal-software-use-in-diesel-cars-report-says http://www.autonews.com/article/20150927/COPY01/309279989/bo...
    - noselasd 10y ago
      People did reverse engineer the Bosch software[1]. And it's entirely data driven. In short, you program it by tuning/changing its parameters, or as was the case with dieselgate, loading different drive profiles into the ECU. [1] https://media.ccc.de/v/32c3-7331-the_exhaust_emissions_scandal_dieselgate#video https://media.ccc.de/v/32c3-7331-the_exhaust_emissions_scand...
    - avs733 10y ago
      >just tweak parameters. that over simplifies it a bit...there are likely hundreds of maps (effectively N-dimensional lookup matrices) and thousands or tens of thousands of variables and parameters. The difference is more akin to firmware/software.
glenndebacker 10y ago
To be honest it would really surprise me if Audi is the only one pulling these kind of tricks. A lot of car manufactures like to skew numbers. Look at the fuel/distance range some are advertising with. I never once got the same fuel/range ratio or the difference is a lot bigger in practice.
- cptskippy 10y ago
  It's pretty well understood that government tests are not reflective of real world driving habits or conditions. The test is however consistent and can be used as a basis for comparison of different vehicles. It's very much like synthetic benchmarks for CPUs. They won't give you a 100% accurate picture but they're a good basis for comparison.
- fokov 10y ago
  I would wager almost everyone skews numbers at least part of the time. This is one of the main reasons we have regulation in the first place. They simply can't be trusted to do the right thing.
justsaysmthng 10y ago
I've noticed changes in my personality since this scandal happened. Before it, I strongly believed that it's possible to be just as successful and competitive without breaking any rules. I didn't go to exams which I didn't study for and refused to cheat when everyone else was doing it. I had opportunities to earn a lot of money by doing shady things, but I've always refused, because I didn't want to compromise on my moral values. But diesel gate made me stop and think. If Germany's largest company does it - then who else does it ? Add to that the wiki/snowden leaks and now the panama papers (to name just a few) and I'm totally confused: It seems that the rich and successful are all corrupt cheaters. Why do I have to part with 30%-40% of my earned income so that some corrupt politicians can spend them on wars and distribute them to their cronies ? Why do I have to play by the rules when the only advantage of doing so is a "clear conscience" which nobody gives two cents about ... maybe just my 5-year old daughter.. but she also believes in Santa Claus. So this scandal has really put me at a moral crossroads - will I go on being a "sucker" or play by the "big boys' rules" and be taken 'seriously' - take advantage of the weak, find ways to avoid taxes, steal, cheat, etc ? What's even more disturbing is that this scandal was provoked by maybe a handful of executives at VW, but now tens of thousands of engineers and workers are going to pay the price - in the form of layoffs, reduced bonuses and so on. Once again, very unfair, since most of those people, I'm sure, are good professionals. So yeah, scandals like this generate more than financial losses or pollution. They generate loss of faith and disappointment and encourage others to step over the line to the "dark side" and become corrupt themselves.
- sopooneo 10y ago
  If the "right" thing was also the prudent thing, we wouldn't have to make the distinction. Religion and law try to balance out the cost of morality, but in the end, a lot of the world wins by bad behavior, so we will often pay for being good. But we still should.
  - LesZedCB 10y ago
    "The World" is an appeal to some platonic form that doesn't exist. There is no organization of the world that we as a society are tending towards. It's just the system we are under, which currently is capitalism, which is private ownership of the means of production (land, factories, machinery, corporations, etc...), which is fundamentally different from slavery, fuedalism, monarchy, etc. However, there are systems which 'don't allow' the rampant levels of inequality that we have now, in the same way that capitalism 'doesn't allow' for every working person to become a wealthy CEO. Unfortunately, since the red scare, these systems have been absent from the American consciousness. Though, recently they are starting to repopularize.
rurban 10y ago
No, they still haven't got it. It was developed by Bosch, probably on request by Audi, and it was parameterized (= enabled) by Audi 1999. Most others engine manufacturers were also tested positive to use this cheat setting.
- rurban 10y ago
  And this is a recent investigation by german authorities, confirming that everyone cheated. http://www.thelocal.de/20160420/several-german-car-manufacturers-cheated-on-emissions http://www.thelocal.de/20160420/several-german-car-manufactu...
maho 10y ago
I am German and went to school in Germany. I completed the 11th grade at an American high school in Oregon, as an exchange student. One of the more unexpected culture shocks I experienced, was how academic cheating was seen as bad even by the American students. In contrast, let me give you a brief, personal account of academic cheating in my school(s) in Germany: We cheated. A lot [1]. Mostly, it was "cooperative cheating" (copying each other's homework, comparing answers during exams), but sometimes it was cheating to get ahead personally (using cheat sheets). Only rarely did we copy homework off the internet, but mostly, because the internet was pretty new. Having others (parents) flat-out do homework for us was, at least to me, unknown, and would have been seen as "bad" cheating, even by the students. Our teachers were by no means oblivious to the problem. Quite the contrary! Having cheated in schools themselves, they knew all the tricks. They spotted us. And they mostly let it slide. I guess if all students are cheating, they still have a level playing-field? In any case, the cooperative nature of our cheating, and the "us vs. the teachers"-attitude, created a strong bond among us students, and helped integrate the nerds among us (myself included) into the general student body. Imagine my surprise, as I tried to recreate this bond with my fellow American students at the Oregon high-school! Most times, the consequences for getting caught cheating in an exam were (from 1st grade to final exams at University, including medical "boards", my wife tells me): You get a warning for being caught the 1st time, a stern warning for being caught the second time, and you fail the exam for being caught the third time. This is per exam. The only times I ever heard second warnings being issued, was teachers mocking the students for being too obvious. I don't recall ever seeing someone fail an exam for cheating, although I hear, it does happen. Cheating subsides as you move up in the academic system. Cheating on your PhD-thesis is not seen as a trivial offense anymore, but as a serious offense not entirely unlike fraud. And here is my points about Dieselgate: I would not be surprised at all if management and the whole engineering team were in on it together - at every German (and possibly European) company simultaneously. With a mindset of: "If everyone is doing it, noone is at an unfair disadvantage." Just like school. Or like quoting fuel-consumption measured by the European standrad such-and-such. Or like giving projected battery-life for a tablet or notebook. Or ... I have since come to appreciate the American way of treating (academic) cheating, but, at times, I also appreciate the German way. It's simply a cultural difference, and I don't argue for either way as the "right way". [1]: http://www.zeit.de/2012/34/C-Abschreibestudie-Interview-Sattler http://www.zeit.de/2012/34/C-Abschreibestudie-Interview-Satt... (This German article describes a study, in which 4 out of 5 students admitted to having cheated in the last semester, at university. If anything, I would expect the fraction of cheating high-school students to be even higher.) Addendum: I have also worked with students from countries, where cheating seems to be even more blatant than in Germany. I was (Of course! Certainly!) morally outraged! I only later realized my hubris.
cisstrd 10y ago
So the software used was written in 1999 at Audi, designed to be "capable of turning off certain engine functions", for what purpose? Cheating purposes? Testing purposes? Does not say. I personally find that not really informative, but ok. Regarding VW: Everyone living at Germany the last years and following the news heard that same mantra over and over again... "to be the most successful car maker", every end of the year the story was how far behind they were compared to Toyota or in other words: how much closer they came. Problem is that they were absolutely obsessed with beating their competitors, especially Toyota, at the same time VW relied heavily on the earnings of their premium brands Audi and Porsche, the margins of VW itself were always somewhat thin, especially compared to Toyota. Too many models, too much variation, they are definitely pursuing now to shift to less models and (even) more modular platforms, but at the same time closing down plants in Germany and shifting to foreign countries will likely not happen. The state of Lower Saxony holds ~20% of the company, VW has repeatedly pledged to "stay a german company" and doesn't want to cut jobs in their home country. Under those circumstances, competing with Toyota might just have not been possible. VW heavily made its bet on the Diesel Engine, and maybe that was wrong, as they had to cheat to make that bet pay off. VW needs a change in culture, desperately, that is unlikely to happen though. Interesting times to come, I wouldn't bet on VW though... but then again, what somewhat rational thinking person would, I know.
- acz 10y ago
  The software has been written by Bosch by Audi’s request. Bosch have even put a disclaimer that it might be illegal using it out of testing lab.
braderhart 10y ago
Right before this happened I was looking into getting a Golf SportsWagen Diesel TDI. When the news broke, the dealership I was working with stopped selling them. They tried to get me to buy a gas model instead. I asked them how much they were willing to work with me. They wouldn't even budge saying that the gas model wasn't affected, and that they didn't feel like the depreciation would be affected. Screw you VW!
- mrpippy 10y ago
  I believe VW has been running good incentive programs since the diesel scandal broke (for obvious reasons), but losing the diesel models really hurt the SportWagen lineup. The diesel was the upper trim, and carried some of the nicer features (like a 6-speed manual available across the range)
  - braderhart 10y ago
    I haven't paid much attention to pricing lately, but they pretty much lost my business because of that. I'm sure the dealership was hurting too but it was bad business all around. The 6-speed manual was the whole reason I wanted it. I can't imagine how angry I would've been if I had just bought one and found out a few weeks after.
excitom 10y ago
The practice of adding "gate" to the end of every scandal should have ended in the last century.

200 points by oinkgrr 10y ago

lugus35 10y ago

Please, don't call it 'dieselgate' as it is only a VW group fraud.

noja 10y ago
No it's not.
JanezStupar 10y ago
Yes? > The VW scandal more generally raised awareness over the high levels of pollution being emitted by diesel vehicles built by a wide range of carmakers, including Volvo, Renault, Mercedes, Jeep, Hyundai, Citroen, BMW, Mazda, Fiat, Ford and Peugeot.[22][23] Independent tests carried out by ADAC proved that, under normal driving conditions, diesel vehicles including the Volvo S60, Renault's Espace Energy and the Jeep Renegade, exceeded legal European emission limits for nitrogen oxide (NOx) by more than 10 times. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volkswagen_emissions_scandal#Automotive_industry_and_other_commentators https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volkswagen_emissions_scandal#A...
- pgeorgi 10y ago
  Emission testing fraud at Mitsubishi (incl cars for Nissan): http://www.theguardian.com/business/2016/apr/20/mitsubishi-motors-mishandled-fuel-economy-tests http://www.theguardian.com/business/2016/apr/20/mitsubishi-m... Kia was also namedropped in the article. I suppose it's easier to compile a list of manufacturers not involved in messing with the numbers...
- makomk 10y ago
  I think that's probably a little misleading. The European emissions limits are based on a specific driving cycle that's known to be kinder than real-world driving. If you use a more realistic test cycle with more aggressive acceleration you're going to get worse efficiency and pollution than the NEDC tests.
  - remael 10y ago
    Exactly. Those are two different, though related, issues. 1. Cheating on the NEDC tests. 2. Emission limits are not coupled to real driving scenarios. Edit: This is important to distinguish. 1 is illegal, 2 is the law but maybe changed.
- vetinari 10y ago
  Apples and oranges. EPA test cycle is different than normal driving conditions. It has been a subject of complaints for a long time, that the paper mileage is divorced from reality (and is especially troubling for corporate owners, when your tax admitted expenses are only up to the paper mileage; everything above it gets taxed).
- lugus35 10y ago
  Volvo, Renault, Mercedes, Jeep, Hyundai, Citroen, BMW, Mazda, Fiat, Ford and Peugeot have not used fraud to pass the tests. You are citing studies using different test conditions than the official test.
  - JanezStupar 10y ago
    While you are technically correct (the best kind of correct!) - we as consumers have still been deceived into thinking we are purchasing and driving vehicles that we thought were significantly cleaner than what they really are. But to say that the manufacturers have no fault in the way the tests are structured is a bit... disingenuous. Don't you think?
    - vmarsy 10y ago
      That's because no benchmark is perfect. You're also being tricked to buy a "twice faster cpu" on your latest phone because it showed twice better performance on a particular benchmark. But There's a big difference between the company that make engineering decisions that try to improve the results on the benchmark (because after all that's what consumers get fooled with) and the one that would have a "if (benchmark_in_progress) cheat; "
tychuz 10y ago
What's with random_problem + gate formula? I don't get it.
- richmarr 10y ago
  Nixon, baby. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Watergate_scandal https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Watergate_scandal
- noja 10y ago
  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_scandals_with_%22-gate%22_suffix https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_scandals_with_%22-gate...
- lmm 10y ago
  The Watergate scandal (named after the hotel where things took place) was such a big thing that the press/public developed a habit of relating subsequent scandals to it by giving them a name ending in -gate.
  - pluma 10y ago
    You mean Watergategate? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vB9JgxhXW5w https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vB9JgxhXW5w
- ccozan 10y ago
  It's coming from a scandal involving Nixon. See here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Watergate_scandal https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Watergate_scandal
  - andybak 10y ago
    Maybe a touch frivolous but definitely pertinent: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vB9JgxhXW5w https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vB9JgxhXW5w
octo_t 10y ago
literally just today, there's news that Mitsubishi were doing the same thing - http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-36089558 http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-36089558
jessriedel 10y ago
"Watergate" didn't apply to every guest of that hotel...

f_allwein 10y ago

So the manipulations have been going on since 1999 (2005 for VW) and appear to have been deliberate, rather than snuck in by a small group of engineers. Will be interesting to see how VW and the other brands mentioned here get out of this. Their crisis management so far certainly does not help.

joekrill 10y ago
According to this article Audi developed the software in 1999 and never used it. So it's incorrect to say this has been going on since 1999 (assuming this article is correct). I guess they could still claim that this mysterious small group of engineers snuck the code, which Audi developed, into the VW ECUs.

stuaxo 10y ago

"But they never used it" ORLY ?

buro9 10y ago
Haven't we all created software that is never used?

aidos 10y ago

I'm actually looking at getting a car at the moment so I've been looking into this to better understand the repercussions for consumers. It's weird, VW say that if your car if affected, they'll fix it. It's a software update that a) won't affect performance and b) won't affect fuel consumption. So, why did they do it in the first place? Edit "VW confirmed the fix will not affect the performance or fuel economy of the cars, while Mueller also said the cars will pass the European emissions test (without cheating) after the fix has been installed." - http://www.autoexpress.co.uk/volkswagen/92893/vw-emissions-scandal-recalls-compensation-is-your-car-affected-latest-news http://www.autoexpress.co.uk/volkswagen/92893/vw-emissions-s...

oinkgrr 10y ago
The software before the update was used to detect if a car was being tested for emissions/ fuel consumption. Then it lowered power and fuel consumption. So it gave skewed figures. Which means in normal driving it was always giving more than advertised figures. So the fuel consumption has not changed from before update for normal driving. So you won't see any difference. Edit: ah my bad. Ah, it specifically relates to particulate emissions, that is not related to fuel consumption
- icebraining 10y ago
  But then how will they pass the test?
  - adwf 10y ago
    It will still pass, they were just pushing the emissions tests lower so that the car could fit in a lower tax bracket. I don't know about every country, but in the UK you get taxed on how polluting your car is. I believe that various governments have made a promise not to increase the taxes on existing cars, as the consumers were unaware at the time of purchase.
    - tamana 10y ago
      Is VW paying the tax difference, or walking away with a government handout?

the_mitsuhiko 10y ago

I find this very confusing because the software that caused "dieselgate" was written by Bosch and other companies and not by either VW or Audi.

Loic 10y ago
Bosch is providing the hardware with a base software which is tuned/modified by the manufacturer. Think of it like an Arduino with a bit of software to control the opening/closing of your house door. You get in the package the hardware + example/working software and then you are free to improve it to let say, open the door if your own custom made dog detector connected to the Arduino is detecting that your dog is in front of the door.
- the_mitsuhiko 10y ago
  > Bosch is providing the hardware with a base software which is tuned/modified by the manufacturer. All the information that I have found so far says that the engine manufacturer cannot change the software, just tweak parameters. Which means that the original test drive curve detection was provided by Bosch. This also makes sense given the fact that Bosch wrote a statement upon delivery to VW that they could not use that detection code for emission cheating. http://www.autonews.com/article/20150927/COPY01/309279989/bosch-warned-vw-about-illegal-software-use-in-diesel-cars-report-says http://www.autonews.com/article/20150927/COPY01/309279989/bo...
  - noselasd 10y ago
    People did reverse engineer the Bosch software[1]. And it's entirely data driven. In short, you program it by tuning/changing its parameters, or as was the case with dieselgate, loading different drive profiles into the ECU. [1] https://media.ccc.de/v/32c3-7331-the_exhaust_emissions_scandal_dieselgate#video https://media.ccc.de/v/32c3-7331-the_exhaust_emissions_scand...
  - avs733 10y ago
    >just tweak parameters. that over simplifies it a bit...there are likely hundreds of maps (effectively N-dimensional lookup matrices) and thousands or tens of thousands of variables and parameters. The difference is more akin to firmware/software.

glenndebacker 10y ago

To be honest it would really surprise me if Audi is the only one pulling these kind of tricks. A lot of car manufactures like to skew numbers. Look at the fuel/distance range some are advertising with. I never once got the same fuel/range ratio or the difference is a lot bigger in practice.

cptskippy 10y ago
It's pretty well understood that government tests are not reflective of real world driving habits or conditions. The test is however consistent and can be used as a basis for comparison of different vehicles. It's very much like synthetic benchmarks for CPUs. They won't give you a 100% accurate picture but they're a good basis for comparison.
fokov 10y ago
I would wager almost everyone skews numbers at least part of the time. This is one of the main reasons we have regulation in the first place. They simply can't be trusted to do the right thing.

justsaysmthng 10y ago

I've noticed changes in my personality since this scandal happened. Before it, I strongly believed that it's possible to be just as successful and competitive without breaking any rules. I didn't go to exams which I didn't study for and refused to cheat when everyone else was doing it. I had opportunities to earn a lot of money by doing shady things, but I've always refused, because I didn't want to compromise on my moral values. But diesel gate made me stop and think. If Germany's largest company does it - then who else does it ? Add to that the wiki/snowden leaks and now the panama papers (to name just a few) and I'm totally confused: It seems that the rich and successful are all corrupt cheaters. Why do I have to part with 30%-40% of my earned income so that some corrupt politicians can spend them on wars and distribute them to their cronies ? Why do I have to play by the rules when the only advantage of doing so is a "clear conscience" which nobody gives two cents about ... maybe just my 5-year old daughter.. but she also believes in Santa Claus. So this scandal has really put me at a moral crossroads - will I go on being a "sucker" or play by the "big boys' rules" and be taken 'seriously' - take advantage of the weak, find ways to avoid taxes, steal, cheat, etc ? What's even more disturbing is that this scandal was provoked by maybe a handful of executives at VW, but now tens of thousands of engineers and workers are going to pay the price - in the form of layoffs, reduced bonuses and so on. Once again, very unfair, since most of those people, I'm sure, are good professionals. So yeah, scandals like this generate more than financial losses or pollution. They generate loss of faith and disappointment and encourage others to step over the line to the "dark side" and become corrupt themselves.

sopooneo 10y ago
If the "right" thing was also the prudent thing, we wouldn't have to make the distinction. Religion and law try to balance out the cost of morality, but in the end, a lot of the world wins by bad behavior, so we will often pay for being good. But we still should.
- LesZedCB 10y ago
  "The World" is an appeal to some platonic form that doesn't exist. There is no organization of the world that we as a society are tending towards. It's just the system we are under, which currently is capitalism, which is private ownership of the means of production (land, factories, machinery, corporations, etc...), which is fundamentally different from slavery, fuedalism, monarchy, etc. However, there are systems which 'don't allow' the rampant levels of inequality that we have now, in the same way that capitalism 'doesn't allow' for every working person to become a wealthy CEO. Unfortunately, since the red scare, these systems have been absent from the American consciousness. Though, recently they are starting to repopularize.

rurban 10y ago

No, they still haven't got it. It was developed by Bosch, probably on request by Audi, and it was parameterized (= enabled) by Audi 1999. Most others engine manufacturers were also tested positive to use this cheat setting.

rurban 10y ago
And this is a recent investigation by german authorities, confirming that everyone cheated. http://www.thelocal.de/20160420/several-german-car-manufacturers-cheated-on-emissions http://www.thelocal.de/20160420/several-german-car-manufactu...

maho 10y ago

I am German and went to school in Germany. I completed the 11th grade at an American high school in Oregon, as an exchange student. One of the more unexpected culture shocks I experienced, was how academic cheating was seen as bad even by the American students. In contrast, let me give you a brief, personal account of academic cheating in my school(s) in Germany: We cheated. A lot [1]. Mostly, it was "cooperative cheating" (copying each other's homework, comparing answers during exams), but sometimes it was cheating to get ahead personally (using cheat sheets). Only rarely did we copy homework off the internet, but mostly, because the internet was pretty new. Having others (parents) flat-out do homework for us was, at least to me, unknown, and would have been seen as "bad" cheating, even by the students. Our teachers were by no means oblivious to the problem. Quite the contrary! Having cheated in schools themselves, they knew all the tricks. They spotted us. And they mostly let it slide. I guess if all students are cheating, they still have a level playing-field? In any case, the cooperative nature of our cheating, and the "us vs. the teachers"-attitude, created a strong bond among us students, and helped integrate the nerds among us (myself included) into the general student body. Imagine my surprise, as I tried to recreate this bond with my fellow American students at the Oregon high-school! Most times, the consequences for getting caught cheating in an exam were (from 1st grade to final exams at University, including medical "boards", my wife tells me): You get a warning for being caught the 1st time, a stern warning for being caught the second time, and you fail the exam for being caught the third time. This is per exam. The only times I ever heard second warnings being issued, was teachers mocking the students for being too obvious. I don't recall ever seeing someone fail an exam for cheating, although I hear, it does happen. Cheating subsides as you move up in the academic system. Cheating on your PhD-thesis is not seen as a trivial offense anymore, but as a serious offense not entirely unlike fraud. And here is my points about Dieselgate: I would not be surprised at all if management and the whole engineering team were in on it together - at every German (and possibly European) company simultaneously. With a mindset of: "If everyone is doing it, noone is at an unfair disadvantage." Just like school. Or like quoting fuel-consumption measured by the European standrad such-and-such. Or like giving projected battery-life for a tablet or notebook. Or ... I have since come to appreciate the American way of treating (academic) cheating, but, at times, I also appreciate the German way. It's simply a cultural difference, and I don't argue for either way as the "right way". [1]: http://www.zeit.de/2012/34/C-Abschreibestudie-Interview-Sattler http://www.zeit.de/2012/34/C-Abschreibestudie-Interview-Satt... (This German article describes a study, in which 4 out of 5 students admitted to having cheated in the last semester, at university. If anything, I would expect the fraction of cheating high-school students to be even higher.) Addendum: I have also worked with students from countries, where cheating seems to be even more blatant than in Germany. I was (Of course! Certainly!) morally outraged! I only later realized my hubris.

cisstrd 10y ago

So the software used was written in 1999 at Audi, designed to be "capable of turning off certain engine functions", for what purpose? Cheating purposes? Testing purposes? Does not say. I personally find that not really informative, but ok. Regarding VW: Everyone living at Germany the last years and following the news heard that same mantra over and over again... "to be the most successful car maker", every end of the year the story was how far behind they were compared to Toyota or in other words: how much closer they came. Problem is that they were absolutely obsessed with beating their competitors, especially Toyota, at the same time VW relied heavily on the earnings of their premium brands Audi and Porsche, the margins of VW itself were always somewhat thin, especially compared to Toyota. Too many models, too much variation, they are definitely pursuing now to shift to less models and (even) more modular platforms, but at the same time closing down plants in Germany and shifting to foreign countries will likely not happen. The state of Lower Saxony holds ~20% of the company, VW has repeatedly pledged to "stay a german company" and doesn't want to cut jobs in their home country. Under those circumstances, competing with Toyota might just have not been possible. VW heavily made its bet on the Diesel Engine, and maybe that was wrong, as they had to cheat to make that bet pay off. VW needs a change in culture, desperately, that is unlikely to happen though. Interesting times to come, I wouldn't bet on VW though... but then again, what somewhat rational thinking person would, I know.

acz 10y ago
The software has been written by Bosch by Audi’s request. Bosch have even put a disclaimer that it might be illegal using it out of testing lab.

braderhart 10y ago

Right before this happened I was looking into getting a Golf SportsWagen Diesel TDI. When the news broke, the dealership I was working with stopped selling them. They tried to get me to buy a gas model instead. I asked them how much they were willing to work with me. They wouldn't even budge saying that the gas model wasn't affected, and that they didn't feel like the depreciation would be affected. Screw you VW!

mrpippy 10y ago
I believe VW has been running good incentive programs since the diesel scandal broke (for obvious reasons), but losing the diesel models really hurt the SportWagen lineup. The diesel was the upper trim, and carried some of the nicer features (like a 6-speed manual available across the range)
- braderhart 10y ago
  I haven't paid much attention to pricing lately, but they pretty much lost my business because of that. I'm sure the dealership was hurting too but it was bad business all around. The 6-speed manual was the whole reason I wanted it. I can't imagine how angry I would've been if I had just bought one and found out a few weeks after.

excitom 10y ago

The practice of adding "gate" to the end of every scandal should have ended in the last century.