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Lol. This sort of statement is often made by people who don't want UBI. "Its just communism/socialism/etc." No its not. Its penance for an otherwise ruthless an

Lol. This sort of statement is often made by people who don't want UBI. "Its just communism/socialism/etc." No its not. Its penance for an otherwise ruthless and unrepentant capitalism which has successfully undermined the value of human labor. Its an invitation to join in on the modern world and an alternative to the paternal condescension which is presently favored. Without it most people will be left to become blatant wage slaves or worse. If we transition to a world where the majority are regularly humiliated and made to feel they're responsible for their own disenfranchisement I suspect I'll end up killing myself. I can't watch it anymore. I didn't succeed because I worked hard. I succeeded because I happened to be smart and I won't be made into an annecdote in support of a system that would have otherwise fucked me. Anyone with the capacity to succeed will readily pay for it via "hard work." It's the people without that capacity that are so "lazy." They literally have no way in which to better themselves. Not in this society. Capitalistic motivation is good and UBI preserves it. But eventually it's only good for a few and we need a solution for everyone else.

thwarted 10y ago
Lol. This sort of statement is often made by people who don't want UBI. "Its just communism/socialism/etc." No its not. Its penance for an otherwise ruthless and unrepentant capitalism which has successfully undermined the value of human labor. While there's no denying that capitalism can be ruthless and unrepentant, and what we have for capitalism currently actually is that, calling the progress of capitalism "ruthless" and "unrepentant" is just as loaded as calling UBI communism/socialism/etc, and leads to needlessly heated debates and ideological headbutting. It fails to convince anyone of anything. Even if capitalism isn't ruthless and unrepentant, the value of human labor goes down, and isn't necessarily undermined, when capitalism seeks efficiency. There is no strict requirement that capitalism be ruthless and unrepentant—those are, in fact, human traits that are impossible to apply to the unthinking and unfeeling system that is capitalism. When capitalism replaces human labor with machines, it isn't to undermine the value of human labor, it's to be more efficient. Ultimately, the result is the same, as you describe: humans are unable to exploit their labor for even basic living. But calling out capitalism as some kind of evil hydra that explicitly sets out to destroy the lives and livelihood of the working class is unproductive. That is an unfortunate side effect of capitalism, and of capitalism gaining increased prominence during an age when human labor itself had high intrinsic value but was also relatively abundant. It is a side effect which must be addressed. I find it much more effective to couch UBI in terms of the end result of capitalism: it makes no sense for a capitalistic system to use relatively inefficient humans to do work that machines can do faster and cheaper. To ensure and give inefficient humans jobs that capitalism could otherwise find ways to do sounds more like a socialist makework ideal than UBI does. It is actually in capitalism's best interest to pay people to stay out the areas where they can not perform tasks as well as machines can. This frees up people to find other avenues of contribution, perhaps finding further efficiencies, without using up all their time and energy leveraging their faculties purely to stay alive.
- MawNicker 10y ago
  That capitalism is unfeeling doesn't make it unworthy of our projections. Besides those aren't human traits. They're the lack of them. Ruthlessness is the lack of compassion and the unrepentantance is... Well that's obvious. My statement was that modern capitalism is unworthy of those projections. It would be much more appropriate to say that a capitalistic system with UBI was compassionate. The inclinations of a machine can be anthropomorphized without harming anyone who understands the limits of such characterizations. It can aid understanding and is useful. This whole site is way too sensitive to flame wars. Just let it burn. Quit repressing shit. Implement collapsible comments.
- TheOtherHobbes 10y ago
  >it makes no sense for a capitalistic system to use relatively inefficient humans to do work that machines can do faster and cheaper. Unless you're selling to those relatively inefficient humans because they're your customers, and they have no disposable income - something that UBI won't fix. Capitalism is like any other ideology - you can make up just-so stories about what it "should" do to be "efficient", but ultimately it's just a way of legitimising power differentials that would otherwise be considered shockingly immoral. And so is UBI. Because while it may, if we're lucky, keep people from starving, what's needed isn't just UBI but free access to continuing education at all levels, access to useful social networks, and other kinds of social capital.
  - MawNicker 10y ago
    I absolutely agree with this. I see UBI as a solution to the tragedy of the commons in the Star Trek economy. Also, it communicates our collective intention not to enslave you. That is, not to subject you to one variety of shockingly immoral power differential. Once you (actually) get rid of slavery the next Big Social Problem is systematically enforced class relations. For which you have mentioned several possible solutions. The problem is that people filter so aggressively. Racism is a superficial component of this. It results from the way we measure correlates when we evaluate humans. Profiling is just too effective. Social classes emerge naturally from anything we can't obscure. If you had money in childhood for instance, you're much more likely to be educated and useful. There are various ways we encode the amount of money we had in childhood. Like straight teeth. Should we prefer to hire people with straight teeth? We need to overcome these artificial boundaries. They are shockingly immoral.
mehrzad 10y ago
I actually identify closest as the ideologies I mentioned. And I agree with you.
- MawNicker 10y ago
  That is nice to know actually. Thank you. I still think I'm right though. Many UBI opponents simply dismiss it as socialism/communism. Sorry if I jumped on you.

Lol. This sort of statement is often made by people who don't want UBI. "Its just communism/socialism/etc." No its not. Its penance for an otherwise ruthless and unrepentant capitalism which has successfully undermined the value of human labor. Its an invitation to join in on the modern world and an alternative to the paternal condescension which is presently favored. Without it most people will be left to become blatant wage slaves or worse. If we transition to a world where the majority are regularly humiliated and made to feel they're responsible for their own disenfranchisement I suspect I'll end up killing myself. I can't watch it anymore. I didn't succeed because I worked hard. I succeeded because I happened to be smart and I won't be made into an annecdote in support of a system that would have otherwise fucked me. Anyone with the capacity to succeed will readily pay for it via "hard work." It's the people without that capacity that are so "lazy." They literally have no way in which to better themselves. Not in this society. Capitalistic motivation is good and UBI preserves it. But eventually it's only good for a few and we need a solution for everyone else.

thwarted 10y ago

Lol. This sort of statement is often made by people who don't want UBI. "Its just communism/socialism/etc." No its not. Its penance for an otherwise ruthless and unrepentant capitalism which has successfully undermined the value of human labor. While there's no denying that capitalism can be ruthless and unrepentant, and what we have for capitalism currently actually is that, calling the progress of capitalism "ruthless" and "unrepentant" is just as loaded as calling UBI communism/socialism/etc, and leads to needlessly heated debates and ideological headbutting. It fails to convince anyone of anything. Even if capitalism isn't ruthless and unrepentant, the value of human labor goes down, and isn't necessarily undermined, when capitalism seeks efficiency. There is no strict requirement that capitalism be ruthless and unrepentant—those are, in fact, human traits that are impossible to apply to the unthinking and unfeeling system that is capitalism. When capitalism replaces human labor with machines, it isn't to undermine the value of human labor, it's to be more efficient. Ultimately, the result is the same, as you describe: humans are unable to exploit their labor for even basic living. But calling out capitalism as some kind of evil hydra that explicitly sets out to destroy the lives and livelihood of the working class is unproductive. That is an unfortunate side effect of capitalism, and of capitalism gaining increased prominence during an age when human labor itself had high intrinsic value but was also relatively abundant. It is a side effect which must be addressed. I find it much more effective to couch UBI in terms of the end result of capitalism: it makes no sense for a capitalistic system to use relatively inefficient humans to do work that machines can do faster and cheaper. To ensure and give inefficient humans jobs that capitalism could otherwise find ways to do sounds more like a socialist makework ideal than UBI does. It is actually in capitalism's best interest to pay people to stay out the areas where they can not perform tasks as well as machines can. This frees up people to find other avenues of contribution, perhaps finding further efficiencies, without using up all their time and energy leveraging their faculties purely to stay alive.

MawNicker 10y ago
That capitalism is unfeeling doesn't make it unworthy of our projections. Besides those aren't human traits. They're the lack of them. Ruthlessness is the lack of compassion and the unrepentantance is... Well that's obvious. My statement was that modern capitalism is unworthy of those projections. It would be much more appropriate to say that a capitalistic system with UBI was compassionate. The inclinations of a machine can be anthropomorphized without harming anyone who understands the limits of such characterizations. It can aid understanding and is useful. This whole site is way too sensitive to flame wars. Just let it burn. Quit repressing shit. Implement collapsible comments.
TheOtherHobbes 10y ago
>it makes no sense for a capitalistic system to use relatively inefficient humans to do work that machines can do faster and cheaper. Unless you're selling to those relatively inefficient humans because they're your customers, and they have no disposable income - something that UBI won't fix. Capitalism is like any other ideology - you can make up just-so stories about what it "should" do to be "efficient", but ultimately it's just a way of legitimising power differentials that would otherwise be considered shockingly immoral. And so is UBI. Because while it may, if we're lucky, keep people from starving, what's needed isn't just UBI but free access to continuing education at all levels, access to useful social networks, and other kinds of social capital.
- MawNicker 10y ago
  I absolutely agree with this. I see UBI as a solution to the tragedy of the commons in the Star Trek economy. Also, it communicates our collective intention not to enslave you. That is, not to subject you to one variety of shockingly immoral power differential. Once you (actually) get rid of slavery the next Big Social Problem is systematically enforced class relations. For which you have mentioned several possible solutions. The problem is that people filter so aggressively. Racism is a superficial component of this. It results from the way we measure correlates when we evaluate humans. Profiling is just too effective. Social classes emerge naturally from anything we can't obscure. If you had money in childhood for instance, you're much more likely to be educated and useful. There are various ways we encode the amount of money we had in childhood. Like straight teeth. Should we prefer to hire people with straight teeth? We need to overcome these artificial boundaries. They are shockingly immoral.

mehrzad 10y ago

I actually identify closest as the ideologies I mentioned. And I agree with you.

MawNicker 10y ago
That is nice to know actually. Thank you. I still think I'm right though. Many UBI opponents simply dismiss it as socialism/communism. Sorry if I jumped on you.