5 ms·

Much like communism, it will turn out never to have been tried after all.

rjeli 11y ago
"After globalization and basic income, is this it? Have we achieved full utopia?" "Oh no, things are gonna get a lot worse."
- vinay427 11y ago
  I'm really not sure what point you're making here. Could you elaborate?
  - GauntletWizard 11y ago
    It's a joke, famously told by Reagan. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r8EstTUq0lo https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r8EstTUq0lo
elcapitan 11y ago
No True Scotsman. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_true_Scotsman https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_true_Scotsman
- mvanvoorden 11y ago
  That does not apply here. There's not an exact definition what a Scotsman is, except that he's from Scotland. Communism is actually a completely worked out ideology. It has never really been tried. In Russia for example, it was State Capitalism under the guise of Communism.
  - elcapitan 11y ago
    > In Russia for example, it was State Capitalism under the guise of Communism. LOL. Sorry, but that is really beyond absurd.
    - actionwords 11y ago
      leftist denialism is truly a sight to see.
    - marxidad 11y ago
      - http://www.marxists.de/statecap/binns/statecap.htm http://www.marxists.de/statecap/binns/statecap.htm - http://www.hetsa.org.au/pdf/34-A-08.pdf http://www.hetsa.org.au/pdf/34-A-08.pdf - http://www.truth-out.org/news/item/31567-socialism-means-abolishing-the-distinction-between-bosses-and-employees http://www.truth-out.org/news/item/31567-socialism-means-abo...
      - elcapitan 11y ago
        Yes, I already said that it's a weird sectarian fringe opinion, you don't need to post weird sectarian fringe group sites to prove it, but thanks.
  - dragonwriter 11y ago
    Communism has a lot of different varieties (you may be thinking of Marxism specifically), many of which have not been tried. While among Communists there might be some point in arguing over whether Leninism (and it's descendants, Stalinism and Maoism, etc.) are really forms of Communism or something else, in more general contexts it's probably better just to note the specific, rather extreme, departures from Marxism that they involve, and note that while they may have failed, those failures cannot be generalized to Communism more generally or, e.g., to Marxism specifically.
    - mc32 11y ago
      Forgive me but that's like batting aside misgivings about capitalism and saying, well that's neo-liberal capitalism or capitalism with eastern values, or government regulated capitalism, etc. When someone points out some deficiencies in capitalism. A form of not a true Scotsman argument.
      - dragonwriter 11y ago
        It's not no true Scotsman to point out a faulty generalization (particularly, because there is no denying that the specific cases are examples of the general concept, merely that they are isolated to a particular subclass of the general type and thus are not sufficient to demonstrate a conclusion about the broad class rather than merely the subclass). But nice try invoking one fallacy falsely to protect another.
        mc32 11y ago
        You were basically saying "None of those were TRUE Marxism -they were perverted, etc.". So in that form basically anyone with any issues with capitalism can be dismissed by saying, well, what east Asian and western economies are living under is not true "free enterprise" capitalism, so don't knock it. However, the reality is we've tried a variety of both and they are known values and the ones we _can_ talk about and anything else is pure speculation and quite beside the point.

rjeli 11y ago

"After globalization and basic income, is this it? Have we achieved full utopia?" "Oh no, things are gonna get a lot worse."

vinay427 11y ago
I'm really not sure what point you're making here. Could you elaborate?
- GauntletWizard 11y ago
  It's a joke, famously told by Reagan. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r8EstTUq0lo https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r8EstTUq0lo

elcapitan 11y ago

No True Scotsman. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_true_Scotsman https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_true_Scotsman

mvanvoorden 11y ago
That does not apply here. There's not an exact definition what a Scotsman is, except that he's from Scotland. Communism is actually a completely worked out ideology. It has never really been tried. In Russia for example, it was State Capitalism under the guise of Communism.
- elcapitan 11y ago
  > In Russia for example, it was State Capitalism under the guise of Communism. LOL. Sorry, but that is really beyond absurd.
  - actionwords 11y ago
    leftist denialism is truly a sight to see.
  - marxidad 11y ago
    - http://www.marxists.de/statecap/binns/statecap.htm http://www.marxists.de/statecap/binns/statecap.htm - http://www.hetsa.org.au/pdf/34-A-08.pdf http://www.hetsa.org.au/pdf/34-A-08.pdf - http://www.truth-out.org/news/item/31567-socialism-means-abolishing-the-distinction-between-bosses-and-employees http://www.truth-out.org/news/item/31567-socialism-means-abo...
    - elcapitan 11y ago
      Yes, I already said that it's a weird sectarian fringe opinion, you don't need to post weird sectarian fringe group sites to prove it, but thanks.
- dragonwriter 11y ago
  Communism has a lot of different varieties (you may be thinking of Marxism specifically), many of which have not been tried. While among Communists there might be some point in arguing over whether Leninism (and it's descendants, Stalinism and Maoism, etc.) are really forms of Communism or something else, in more general contexts it's probably better just to note the specific, rather extreme, departures from Marxism that they involve, and note that while they may have failed, those failures cannot be generalized to Communism more generally or, e.g., to Marxism specifically.
  - mc32 11y ago
    Forgive me but that's like batting aside misgivings about capitalism and saying, well that's neo-liberal capitalism or capitalism with eastern values, or government regulated capitalism, etc. When someone points out some deficiencies in capitalism. A form of not a true Scotsman argument.
    - dragonwriter 11y ago
      It's not no true Scotsman to point out a faulty generalization (particularly, because there is no denying that the specific cases are examples of the general concept, merely that they are isolated to a particular subclass of the general type and thus are not sufficient to demonstrate a conclusion about the broad class rather than merely the subclass). But nice try invoking one fallacy falsely to protect another.
      - mc32 11y ago
        You were basically saying "None of those were TRUE Marxism -they were perverted, etc.". So in that form basically anyone with any issues with capitalism can be dismissed by saying, well, what east Asian and western economies are living under is not true "free enterprise" capitalism, so don't knock it. However, the reality is we've tried a variety of both and they are known values and the ones we _can_ talk about and anything else is pure speculation and quite beside the point.