5 ms·

Yeah guys, sue the firewall vendor for your unencrypted internet traffic getting you fucked. Are we supposed to forbid companies from complying with customer r

Yeah guys, sue the firewall vendor for your unencrypted internet traffic getting you fucked. Are we supposed to forbid companies from complying with customer requests, even if they're unaware or just don't really care how those will be ultimately used? I know I'd implement similar things if it were requested of me. I doubt this will be a popular opinion on HN, but I don't think Cisco was in the wrong here. Once traffic crosses your network boundary, it's fair game.

teraflop 11y ago
> Are we supposed to forbid companies from complying with customer requests, even if they're unaware or just don't really care how those will be ultimately used? "Unaware" is a red herring because Cisco knew exactly what they were doing. From the court filing: 174. In October 2002 and September of 2003, 2005, 2006, 2007, 2008, and 2010, Cisco shareholder resolutions identified concerns regarding potential human rights abuses arising from Cisco network technology solutions provided to foreign countries, including and especially China, and called for investigation into Defendant Cisco’s complicity in these abuses. These resolutions were presented to the Cisco Board of Directors, including Defendant Chambers, and in each instance, the Board of Directors issued a statement recommending that shareholders reject the proposal. Well after this point, Defendant Cisco continued to help the Party and Public Security officers to suppress Falun Gong through use of the Golden Shield. 175. Cisco’s Golden Shield files include several court and prosecutorial reports identifying the douzheng of Falun Gong and other “hostile elements” as one of the five tasks of the Strike Hard campaign created to suppress Falun Gong with the Chinese for the term “element” designating targets of persecutory campaigns in the PRC. 176. Cisco’s marketing materials in China repeatedly boasted that Cisco’s technology solutions could guard against Falun Gong, block and track Falun Gong, monitor and profile Falun Gong, and in other ways persecute Falun Gong. If someone "just doesn't really care" about actively helping a foreign government to capture its political enemies and torture them to death, I have no problem making a moral judgment about them.
- ultramancool 11y ago
  > Cisco’s marketing materials in China repeatedly boasted that Cisco’s technology solutions could guard against Falun Gong, block and track Falun Gong, monitor and profile Falun Gong, and in other ways persecute Falun Gong. Note that none of the things you list include torture. You've shown nothing more than a tangential possibility of awareness. Without showing their direct knowledge of the torture and a direct link to requests from Cisco, you've proven nothing. In fact, if anything you've shown they really went the extra mile to look into it. That's way more work than I would have done at least . the reality is that looking into something like this makes it more likely you'll get screwed over if it comes up legally later. What do you think about manufacturers of end to end encryption tech? Certainly there's evidence that it can be used for bad things too. I worry that cases like this, if successful, could be used against Signal or similar next.
  - meepmorp 11y ago
    > Note that none of the things you list include torture. You've shown nothing more than a tangential possibility of awareness. Without showing their direct knowledge of the torture and a direct link to requests from Cisco, you've proven nothing. Just stop.
    - deleted 11y ago
      [deleted]
philfrasty 11y ago
"...firewall vendor..." you clearly did not read the whole thing.
PhasmaFelis 11y ago
What is it with all the "yes of course you should help torture people if it's good for your business" in this thread? Hacker News is usually pretty laissez-faire, but this isn't the normal tone here.
- jonathankoren 11y ago
  It's an election year. That always brings out the most extreme positions. Especially since shocking extreme positions seems to be par for the course this cycle.
- jessaustin 11y ago
  Hacker News is usually pretty laissez-faire, but this isn't the normal tone here. I think one can distinguish between laissez-faire that amounts to "leave human beings to live as they will" and another concept that is "everything is permitted to the powerful". Actually IMHO it is a corruption to consider the latter to even be related to laissez-faire. However, many people conflate the two propositions, and would like the rest of us to conflate them as well.

teraflop 11y ago

> Are we supposed to forbid companies from complying with customer requests, even if they're unaware or just don't really care how those will be ultimately used? "Unaware" is a red herring because Cisco knew exactly what they were doing. From the court filing: 174. In October 2002 and September of 2003, 2005, 2006, 2007, 2008, and 2010, Cisco shareholder resolutions identified concerns regarding potential human rights abuses arising from Cisco network technology solutions provided to foreign countries, including and especially China, and called for investigation into Defendant Cisco’s complicity in these abuses. These resolutions were presented to the Cisco Board of Directors, including Defendant Chambers, and in each instance, the Board of Directors issued a statement recommending that shareholders reject the proposal. Well after this point, Defendant Cisco continued to help the Party and Public Security officers to suppress Falun Gong through use of the Golden Shield. 175. Cisco’s Golden Shield files include several court and prosecutorial reports identifying the douzheng of Falun Gong and other “hostile elements” as one of the five tasks of the Strike Hard campaign created to suppress Falun Gong with the Chinese for the term “element” designating targets of persecutory campaigns in the PRC. 176. Cisco’s marketing materials in China repeatedly boasted that Cisco’s technology solutions could guard against Falun Gong, block and track Falun Gong, monitor and profile Falun Gong, and in other ways persecute Falun Gong. If someone "just doesn't really care" about actively helping a foreign government to capture its political enemies and torture them to death, I have no problem making a moral judgment about them.

ultramancool 11y ago
> Cisco’s marketing materials in China repeatedly boasted that Cisco’s technology solutions could guard against Falun Gong, block and track Falun Gong, monitor and profile Falun Gong, and in other ways persecute Falun Gong. Note that none of the things you list include torture. You've shown nothing more than a tangential possibility of awareness. Without showing their direct knowledge of the torture and a direct link to requests from Cisco, you've proven nothing. In fact, if anything you've shown they really went the extra mile to look into it. That's way more work than I would have done at least . the reality is that looking into something like this makes it more likely you'll get screwed over if it comes up legally later. What do you think about manufacturers of end to end encryption tech? Certainly there's evidence that it can be used for bad things too. I worry that cases like this, if successful, could be used against Signal or similar next.
- meepmorp 11y ago
  > Note that none of the things you list include torture. You've shown nothing more than a tangential possibility of awareness. Without showing their direct knowledge of the torture and a direct link to requests from Cisco, you've proven nothing. Just stop.
  - deleted 11y ago
    [deleted]

philfrasty 11y ago

"...firewall vendor..." you clearly did not read the whole thing.

PhasmaFelis 11y ago

What is it with all the "yes of course you should help torture people if it's good for your business" in this thread? Hacker News is usually pretty laissez-faire, but this isn't the normal tone here.

jonathankoren 11y ago
It's an election year. That always brings out the most extreme positions. Especially since shocking extreme positions seems to be par for the course this cycle.
jessaustin 11y ago
Hacker News is usually pretty laissez-faire, but this isn't the normal tone here. I think one can distinguish between laissez-faire that amounts to "leave human beings to live as they will" and another concept that is "everything is permitted to the powerful". Actually IMHO it is a corruption to consider the latter to even be related to laissez-faire. However, many people conflate the two propositions, and would like the rest of us to conflate them as well.