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https://developer.apple.com/app-store/review/guidelines/ https://developer.apple.com/app-store/review/guidelines/ OK, this is not going to be a popular opinion

by educar 10y ago

https://developer.apple.com/app-store/review/guidelines/ https://developer.apple.com/app-store/review/guidelines/ OK, this is not going to be a popular opinion but this is terrible, harsh and condescending language. Only apple can get away with this. Phrases like 'think about the children', 'amateur hour', 'run to the press' simply don't help. I know how to take care of my kids, thank you. And the lesson I am giving them is not to get into walled gardens where someone else controls what my children can see and do. Calling things amateur is sad - who are they to decide? Let the market decide, don't decide for the market. Did these guys see the airbnb video the other day where Brian said everyone said the idea was totally stupid. 'Lasting entertainment', yeah right. I don't know about you guys but this is as close to big brother speak as I have seen. (I don't own any apple product and never will because I cannot imagine buying a device where I cannot install my own software without purchasing Apple laptops. Seriously? This is progress?)

masklinn 10y ago
> Calling things amateur is sad - who are they to decide? The owners of the platform? > Let the market decide, don't decide for the market. That's completely nonsensical, every content owner or provider makes decision about the content they want to publish, at best "the market" "decides" whether it likes their content or not. > Seriously? This is progress? This is old news, mostly. These are a curt form of the developer agreement (with a short form of the reasoning behind them), the original version was leaked back in 2010 or something, back when it was still an internal guidelines document for appstore reviewers.
- educar 10y ago
  I don't get your line of thinking. You are condoning their actions because they own the platform? It's their garden, they can do whatever, so we just stop talking about it? Can we then do the same for, I don't know Korea, Middle east and the like? It's their land, they can do whatever with human rights. Why talk about it?
  - masklinn 10y ago
    > I don't get your line of thinking. You are condoning their actions because they own the platform? It's their garden, they can do whatever, so we just stop talking about it? Feel free to talk about it, but the outrage seems eminently artificial, especially given these guidelines are years old for the most part. > Can we then do the same for, I don't know Korea, Middle east and the like? It's their land, they can do whatever with human rights. Why talk about it? Don't you think there's a slight difference between living in "I don't know Korea, Middle east and the like" and deciding to develop for ios? As you note, you have the freedom to not buy apple devides, to not use them, and even more so to not develop for them, you're not exactly stuck between whoever's running the place and whatever "big boy" nation has decided today was good weather for an airstrike.
    - ZoF 10y ago
      >especially given these guidelines are years old for the most part. What part of the guidelines being old makes the outrage '[very] artificial'? Seems valid outrage/annoyance to me, and I didn't artificially manufacture my annoyance, there's nothing 'eminently' fake about it. Is the holocaust less shitty because time has passed? To draw a less emotionally charged parallel, was your coffee any less bitter that one time because you drank it two days ago? >Don't you think there's a slight difference between living in "I don't know Korea, Middle east and the like" and deciding to develop for ios? Obviously. It's an analogy. It's not supposed to be a direct representation of the current situation/issue. To be clear here, your response is this: they own the devices/platform, they should be able to decide every aspect of how people code/develop/hack on that platform? A purchased device should be, given the above, owned(or at least controlled) by those who created the device, not by those who bought it? Yes, we do have the freedom to not buy Apple products, which is why many of us don't.
      - CPLX 10y ago
        > Is the holocaust less shitty because time has passed? Godwin Index = 4 Replies
    - jamra 10y ago
deleted 10y ago
[deleted]
bobwaycott 10y ago
I don't think it's harsh and condescending. But it certainly reads as flippant and unprofessional to me. I get the impression some college intern wrote this thinking it sounded more laid-back and relatable or something.
- danneu 10y ago
  Yeah, reads like the guidelines I would've written when I was a 17-year-old forum moderator.
  - ianhawes 10y ago
    These guidelines were originally drafted by Steve Jobs.
    - grapehut 10y ago
      sounds about right
  - bobwaycott 10y ago
    Pretty much exactly what I thought.
sjwright 10y ago
> OK, this is not going to be a popular opinion but this is terrible, harsh and condescending language. Whereas I think it's refreshingly clear and honest, unbound by the artificial construct of committee-approved PR-speak. > I don't own any apple product and never will because I cannot imagine buying a device where I cannot install my own software without purchasing Apple laptops. Each to their own. I'm a developer and I consider my personal phone an appliance, not a hacking station. Even if I didn't own any other Apple devices, I'd still have an iPhone. (And considering Apple laptops have among the best build quality, considering they ship with an OS with an open UNIX core, and are competitively priced, I couldn't be happier with them.)
st3v3r 10y ago
"Calling things amateur is sad - who are they to decide? Let the market decide, don't decide for the market" It's their market. That's who they are to decide. And they're right. Having a bunch of crappy, shoddy apps hurts those who actually put time, effort, and yes, money into apps with the hopes of making a return. Seriously, by that token, any grocery store should be forced to carry my shittily packaged and shitty tasting food. "I don't know about you guys but this is as close to big brother speak as I have seen." No, it isn't. It's telling developers not to try and submit just any old crap and hope it sticks. Quite frankly, Apple has plenty of developers and apps; they can afford to be picky. "(I don't own any apple product and never will because I cannot imagine buying a device where I cannot install my own software without purchasing Apple laptops. Seriously? This is progress?)" Nobody cares.
- rdl 10y ago
  The implication of "amateur hour" is different from "amateur".
- educar 10y ago
  > Seriously, by that token, any grocery store should be forced to carry my shittily packaged and shitty tasting food. If we had just 2 main grocery stores and each store acts in such an authoritarian fashion, then it's the duty of the people in know how to educate people about the situation. Over a course of 10 years, you will only get only "chips" and "biscuits" approved by them because they decided what is good for you. In fact, once biscuits becomes profitable enough, they will kick out existing players and make their own since they control the market (and Apple has much history of just merging existing products and calling it their own). > Nobody cares. Sure, if the above reality seems appealing to you, go ahead and not care. But many of us do and we are doing our bit to change it.
  - st3v3r 10y ago
    The "nobody cares" part was directed at your chest thumping bravado of "I Don't Have Apple Products", like you deserve some kind of cookie for saying so.
joslin01 10y ago
I remember being surprised the first time I read it, but maybe some context will help. > Amatuer hour Many developers would love to build a shitty first app and throw it on the app store to proclaim to the world: look I made it on the app store. This runs directly contrary to what consumers' expectations are for apps. Apple knows their consumers and therefore erected this wall to help them. > Think about the children I really don't see how this is bad. Apple has always been anti-porn and they're going to continue trying to tread the moral high ground. That's fine if you think this affects your free will, but really it doesn't -- Apple is just one platform. > Run to the press They are looking to review an app and will make a judgment they deem appropriate. Since that is their right, they mean to nip the problem in the bud so you don't think you can get public opinion to sway their judgment. > close to big brother speak as I have seen I find big brother speak in my US govt that worries me a lot more than Apple protecting their app store. Oh and on that note, isn't it Apple that is standing up to the US govt? > where I cannot install my own software without purchasing Apple laptops. Seriously? This is progress? > ... not to get into walled gardens where someone else controls what my children can see and do These are your beliefs, which I'm sorry to say does not reflect the general public. The general public finds it easy to use Apple for everything. So when you ask them "Is this progress?" The resounding answer is "yes" I find your diatribe to be greatly exaggerated and do not believe this is the sign of something evil. I think it's just your personal opinion validating why you'll never own an Apple in your life. Good for you. Me and probably the rest of the average consumers do indeed like it that Apple looks out for children + does not permit shitty apps on the app store.
peyton 10y ago
Devil's advocate: it's written to be memorable. Punchy. Guidelines are no good if people can't remember them or worse, don't read them.
tomc1985 10y ago
I agree, the language here is condescending at best. I don't want an organization talking to me as if it were my friend. Apple is not a friend -- it is a company that wants my money. (If anything that makes it an enemy.) One thing I have found is not to trust anyone above oneself that tries to stoop to your level. They often do this because either they think you are not smart enough to understand what they really want to say, or they just really don't want to say it but they need some words to put on a page.

by educar 10y ago

masklinn 10y ago

> Calling things amateur is sad - who are they to decide? The owners of the platform? > Let the market decide, don't decide for the market. That's completely nonsensical, every content owner or provider makes decision about the content they want to publish, at best "the market" "decides" whether it likes their content or not. > Seriously? This is progress? This is old news, mostly. These are a curt form of the developer agreement (with a short form of the reasoning behind them), the original version was leaked back in 2010 or something, back when it was still an internal guidelines document for appstore reviewers.

educar 10y ago
I don't get your line of thinking. You are condoning their actions because they own the platform? It's their garden, they can do whatever, so we just stop talking about it? Can we then do the same for, I don't know Korea, Middle east and the like? It's their land, they can do whatever with human rights. Why talk about it?
- masklinn 10y ago
  > I don't get your line of thinking. You are condoning their actions because they own the platform? It's their garden, they can do whatever, so we just stop talking about it? Feel free to talk about it, but the outrage seems eminently artificial, especially given these guidelines are years old for the most part. > Can we then do the same for, I don't know Korea, Middle east and the like? It's their land, they can do whatever with human rights. Why talk about it? Don't you think there's a slight difference between living in "I don't know Korea, Middle east and the like" and deciding to develop for ios? As you note, you have the freedom to not buy apple devides, to not use them, and even more so to not develop for them, you're not exactly stuck between whoever's running the place and whatever "big boy" nation has decided today was good weather for an airstrike.
  - ZoF 10y ago
    >especially given these guidelines are years old for the most part. What part of the guidelines being old makes the outrage '[very] artificial'? Seems valid outrage/annoyance to me, and I didn't artificially manufacture my annoyance, there's nothing 'eminently' fake about it. Is the holocaust less shitty because time has passed? To draw a less emotionally charged parallel, was your coffee any less bitter that one time because you drank it two days ago? >Don't you think there's a slight difference between living in "I don't know Korea, Middle east and the like" and deciding to develop for ios? Obviously. It's an analogy. It's not supposed to be a direct representation of the current situation/issue. To be clear here, your response is this: they own the devices/platform, they should be able to decide every aspect of how people code/develop/hack on that platform? A purchased device should be, given the above, owned(or at least controlled) by those who created the device, not by those who bought it? Yes, we do have the freedom to not buy Apple products, which is why many of us don't.
    - CPLX 10y ago
      > Is the holocaust less shitty because time has passed? Godwin Index = 4 Replies
  - jamra 10y ago

deleted 10y ago

[deleted]

bobwaycott 10y ago

I don't think it's harsh and condescending. But it certainly reads as flippant and unprofessional to me. I get the impression some college intern wrote this thinking it sounded more laid-back and relatable or something.

danneu 10y ago
Yeah, reads like the guidelines I would've written when I was a 17-year-old forum moderator.
- ianhawes 10y ago
  These guidelines were originally drafted by Steve Jobs.
  - grapehut 10y ago
    sounds about right
- bobwaycott 10y ago
  Pretty much exactly what I thought.

sjwright 10y ago

> OK, this is not going to be a popular opinion but this is terrible, harsh and condescending language. Whereas I think it's refreshingly clear and honest, unbound by the artificial construct of committee-approved PR-speak. > I don't own any apple product and never will because I cannot imagine buying a device where I cannot install my own software without purchasing Apple laptops. Each to their own. I'm a developer and I consider my personal phone an appliance, not a hacking station. Even if I didn't own any other Apple devices, I'd still have an iPhone. (And considering Apple laptops have among the best build quality, considering they ship with an OS with an open UNIX core, and are competitively priced, I couldn't be happier with them.)

st3v3r 10y ago

"Calling things amateur is sad - who are they to decide? Let the market decide, don't decide for the market" It's their market. That's who they are to decide. And they're right. Having a bunch of crappy, shoddy apps hurts those who actually put time, effort, and yes, money into apps with the hopes of making a return. Seriously, by that token, any grocery store should be forced to carry my shittily packaged and shitty tasting food. "I don't know about you guys but this is as close to big brother speak as I have seen." No, it isn't. It's telling developers not to try and submit just any old crap and hope it sticks. Quite frankly, Apple has plenty of developers and apps; they can afford to be picky. "(I don't own any apple product and never will because I cannot imagine buying a device where I cannot install my own software without purchasing Apple laptops. Seriously? This is progress?)" Nobody cares.

rdl 10y ago
The implication of "amateur hour" is different from "amateur".
educar 10y ago
> Seriously, by that token, any grocery store should be forced to carry my shittily packaged and shitty tasting food. If we had just 2 main grocery stores and each store acts in such an authoritarian fashion, then it's the duty of the people in know how to educate people about the situation. Over a course of 10 years, you will only get only "chips" and "biscuits" approved by them because they decided what is good for you. In fact, once biscuits becomes profitable enough, they will kick out existing players and make their own since they control the market (and Apple has much history of just merging existing products and calling it their own). > Nobody cares. Sure, if the above reality seems appealing to you, go ahead and not care. But many of us do and we are doing our bit to change it.
- st3v3r 10y ago
  The "nobody cares" part was directed at your chest thumping bravado of "I Don't Have Apple Products", like you deserve some kind of cookie for saying so.

joslin01 10y ago

I remember being surprised the first time I read it, but maybe some context will help. > Amatuer hour Many developers would love to build a shitty first app and throw it on the app store to proclaim to the world: look I made it on the app store. This runs directly contrary to what consumers' expectations are for apps. Apple knows their consumers and therefore erected this wall to help them. > Think about the children I really don't see how this is bad. Apple has always been anti-porn and they're going to continue trying to tread the moral high ground. That's fine if you think this affects your free will, but really it doesn't -- Apple is just one platform. > Run to the press They are looking to review an app and will make a judgment they deem appropriate. Since that is their right, they mean to nip the problem in the bud so you don't think you can get public opinion to sway their judgment. > close to big brother speak as I have seen I find big brother speak in my US govt that worries me a lot more than Apple protecting their app store. Oh and on that note, isn't it Apple that is standing up to the US govt? > where I cannot install my own software without purchasing Apple laptops. Seriously? This is progress? > ... not to get into walled gardens where someone else controls what my children can see and do These are your beliefs, which I'm sorry to say does not reflect the general public. The general public finds it easy to use Apple for everything. So when you ask them "Is this progress?" The resounding answer is "yes" I find your diatribe to be greatly exaggerated and do not believe this is the sign of something evil. I think it's just your personal opinion validating why you'll never own an Apple in your life. Good for you. Me and probably the rest of the average consumers do indeed like it that Apple looks out for children + does not permit shitty apps on the app store.

peyton 10y ago

Devil's advocate: it's written to be memorable. Punchy. Guidelines are no good if people can't remember them or worse, don't read them.

tomc1985 10y ago

I agree, the language here is condescending at best. I don't want an organization talking to me as if it were my friend. Apple is not a friend -- it is a company that wants my money. (If anything that makes it an enemy.) One thing I have found is not to trust anyone above oneself that tries to stoop to your level. They often do this because either they think you are not smart enough to understand what they really want to say, or they just really don't want to say it but they need some words to put on a page.