5 ms·

Uh, reading the study, smoking cannabis then taking amphetamine causes dopamine deficits, and they don't explore whether this is transient or permanent. I smok

Uh, reading the study, smoking cannabis then taking amphetamine causes dopamine deficits, and they don't explore whether this is transient or permanent. I smoke more weed than I probably should, but I had a screwed up dopamine system to start with - the genes don't lie. Actually, on that note, perhaps people with preexisting dopamine deficits are more likely to become heavy cannabis users because it's the only way that they can experience dopamine - going through life with people going "what an achievement! Aren't you proud??" and only being able to reply "meh, I should've done better than first place" or whatever sucks. I can only reflect upon and feel good about what I've done with my life when stoned. I don't have a reward cycle, otherwise - I learned to motivate myself with a punishment cycle instead, and only now am I slowly unlearning it.

llamataboot 11y ago
To be fair, amphetamines causing dopamine deficits seems pretty obvious. Anyone that has ever gone on a speed binge (and yes, that time you took adderall for 3 days straight to get some shit done counts) knows that the next days afterwards can be pretty blah. There's dopamine precursors that help, but as with all substances -- what goes up, must come down. Everything in moderation, including moderation.
- llamataboot 11y ago
  In this case though, it seems like the amphetamines had reduced dopaminergenic effects for chronic cannabis users. Again - lack of motivation is a pretty common anecdotal report of heavy and chronic cannabis use. Moderation.
  - exelius 11y ago
    Lack of motivation is a pretty common reason for prescribing amphetimines as well. Also, I know plenty of counter-examples to the "lazy stoner" stereotype. You just didn't know that the CEO of your company has a stealth grow op in his basement because that's not the kind of thing you advertise. Anecdotally, I would say that regular and heavy cannabis use very common among management consultants and software developers -- and it's hard to remain in those jobs long if you're unable to motivate yourself. But if work is stressful, a few bong rips at the end of the day can be a nice way to relax.
    - llamataboot 11y ago
      Well using amphetamines will certainly motivate one to do /something/ :P The rampant use of prescription amphetamines while speed and meth remain much maligned is another issue entirely. I also know many counter-examples, but most people I know that have used cannabis regularly for years or decades seem to sort of auto-regulate their use. It waxes and wanes - sometimes daily, sometimes monthly. I don't suspect that it has extremely negative effects, but it wouldn't surprise me if their were a mix of effects that occur with heavy and regular use that don't occur with more moderate use. To each their own -- I also know highly functional regular opiate users, and some who have fallen off the functional boat hard. I'm all about harm reduction and personal freedom when it comes to altering ones consciousness. Also, of course we know that probably the most toxic substance to use heavily and regularly is alcohol. I expect many orders of magnitude more harmful for both the brain and body than cannabis will ever be shown to be.
bweitzman 11y ago
No, the study said that the subjects (who were either dependent on marijuana or non users) were given the amphetamine to elicit a dopamine response. The users did not smoke for a week prior to the experiment, so you would expect that if there were no dopamine deficits than they would have similar response to the amphetamine. I'm no brain scientist but it seems like a reasonable experiment.
- madaxe_again 11y ago
  Sure, but the half life of cannabinoid metabolites is weeks, so this is possibly still an active combinatory effect rather than a residual one. I do notice that if I smoke crazy amounts (ounces per week) then I do end up with latent cognitive deficits, such as substituting homophones in my writing and losing my train of thought mid-sentence, but they vanish with a few weeks of abstinence. I'm not ruling out the possibly of cumulative, long term effects, and I'll vouch that massively overdoing it over a long period will make you REALLY ill (read up on Cannabis Hyperemesis Syndrome... It's worse than death), but from my idiopathic stance I'm not seeing long term cognitive effects. I started as an adult, my only childhood vice was drink.
  - bweitzman 11y ago
    Yeah I'm not commenting on the results. The sample size was way too small to be a reasonable study and yeah, weeks is not enough to talk about long term results. But the basic principle of the experiment is sound I think.
mayank 11y ago
> Uh, reading the study, smoking cannabis then taking amphetamine causes dopamine deficits, and they don't explore whether this is transient or permanent. Yes, the title is extremely sensationalized, as is sadly the norm with science reporting [1]. However, the results are important when you consider the number of teenagers on ADHD medication (generally amphetamines) who might be trying cannabis. [1] http://www.phdcomics.com/comics.php?n=1174 http://www.phdcomics.com/comics.php?n=1174
- jrs235 11y ago
  > Yes, the title is extremely sensationalized, Yes, the original title is sensaionalized and didn't actually agree or align with the contents of the article which is why when I submitted this story I changed the title for HN to be what it is above "Smoking Cannabis Associated with Dopamine Deficits in the Brain". I suppose I could have used correlated instead of associated but the article seemed to link the two fairly poorly and I felt associated is a lower threshold of a link than correlation. I was more interested in the discussion this would invoke from HNers. Thank you HNers for your thoughts and insights.
deleted 11y ago
[deleted]

llamataboot 11y ago

To be fair, amphetamines causing dopamine deficits seems pretty obvious. Anyone that has ever gone on a speed binge (and yes, that time you took adderall for 3 days straight to get some shit done counts) knows that the next days afterwards can be pretty blah. There's dopamine precursors that help, but as with all substances -- what goes up, must come down. Everything in moderation, including moderation.

llamataboot 11y ago
In this case though, it seems like the amphetamines had reduced dopaminergenic effects for chronic cannabis users. Again - lack of motivation is a pretty common anecdotal report of heavy and chronic cannabis use. Moderation.
- exelius 11y ago
  Lack of motivation is a pretty common reason for prescribing amphetimines as well. Also, I know plenty of counter-examples to the "lazy stoner" stereotype. You just didn't know that the CEO of your company has a stealth grow op in his basement because that's not the kind of thing you advertise. Anecdotally, I would say that regular and heavy cannabis use very common among management consultants and software developers -- and it's hard to remain in those jobs long if you're unable to motivate yourself. But if work is stressful, a few bong rips at the end of the day can be a nice way to relax.
  - llamataboot 11y ago
    Well using amphetamines will certainly motivate one to do /something/ :P The rampant use of prescription amphetamines while speed and meth remain much maligned is another issue entirely. I also know many counter-examples, but most people I know that have used cannabis regularly for years or decades seem to sort of auto-regulate their use. It waxes and wanes - sometimes daily, sometimes monthly. I don't suspect that it has extremely negative effects, but it wouldn't surprise me if their were a mix of effects that occur with heavy and regular use that don't occur with more moderate use. To each their own -- I also know highly functional regular opiate users, and some who have fallen off the functional boat hard. I'm all about harm reduction and personal freedom when it comes to altering ones consciousness. Also, of course we know that probably the most toxic substance to use heavily and regularly is alcohol. I expect many orders of magnitude more harmful for both the brain and body than cannabis will ever be shown to be.

bweitzman 11y ago

No, the study said that the subjects (who were either dependent on marijuana or non users) were given the amphetamine to elicit a dopamine response. The users did not smoke for a week prior to the experiment, so you would expect that if there were no dopamine deficits than they would have similar response to the amphetamine. I'm no brain scientist but it seems like a reasonable experiment.

madaxe_again 11y ago
Sure, but the half life of cannabinoid metabolites is weeks, so this is possibly still an active combinatory effect rather than a residual one. I do notice that if I smoke crazy amounts (ounces per week) then I do end up with latent cognitive deficits, such as substituting homophones in my writing and losing my train of thought mid-sentence, but they vanish with a few weeks of abstinence. I'm not ruling out the possibly of cumulative, long term effects, and I'll vouch that massively overdoing it over a long period will make you REALLY ill (read up on Cannabis Hyperemesis Syndrome... It's worse than death), but from my idiopathic stance I'm not seeing long term cognitive effects. I started as an adult, my only childhood vice was drink.
- bweitzman 11y ago
  Yeah I'm not commenting on the results. The sample size was way too small to be a reasonable study and yeah, weeks is not enough to talk about long term results. But the basic principle of the experiment is sound I think.

mayank 11y ago

> Uh, reading the study, smoking cannabis then taking amphetamine causes dopamine deficits, and they don't explore whether this is transient or permanent. Yes, the title is extremely sensationalized, as is sadly the norm with science reporting [1]. However, the results are important when you consider the number of teenagers on ADHD medication (generally amphetamines) who might be trying cannabis. [1] http://www.phdcomics.com/comics.php?n=1174 http://www.phdcomics.com/comics.php?n=1174

jrs235 11y ago
> Yes, the title is extremely sensationalized, Yes, the original title is sensaionalized and didn't actually agree or align with the contents of the article which is why when I submitted this story I changed the title for HN to be what it is above "Smoking Cannabis Associated with Dopamine Deficits in the Brain". I suppose I could have used correlated instead of associated but the article seemed to link the two fairly poorly and I felt associated is a lower threshold of a link than correlation. I was more interested in the discussion this would invoke from HNers. Thank you HNers for your thoughts and insights.

deleted 11y ago

[deleted]