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AP: South Korea covered up mass abuse, killings of 'vagrants'
- thomjrob 11y agoI was under the impression this wasn't exactly hidden knowledge. South Korean cinema has made movies on it. The South Korean intelligence agency involved even renamed itself and has had some powers stripped because of it (and other reasons). I guess it's just not that well known in the west.
- capote 11y agoI made some Korean friends on a semester abroad in college… Kind of shocked me how much I hadn't heard of concerning Korea and Japan, from specific stories like this to differences in daily life and what is considered "normal behavior". Things sometimes don't really make it out—could it have to do with the differences in how negative it's considered to face a potentially embarrassing situation?
- 21 11y agoI am a pretty informed EU person, and I had no idea South Korea was a military dictatorship so recent. If I think about it, I don't know anything about that region regarding the 80s. What is described here is worse that what happened behind the Iron Curtain at the same time, in terms of numbers at least (more people tortured).
- sho_hn 11y agoYeah, it's stunning how little we learn about Asia in European schools. The "I'm a pretty informed EU person" attitude is part of the problem -- how many of the countries on the top 30 economies list have you actually ever read the History Wikipedia article of? Why not?
- crdoconnor 11y agoThat's propaganda for you. 80% of it is simply emphasizing certain stories and ignoring others. North Koreans have probably heard this story.
- sho_hn 11y agoTalking to South Koreans about the PCH era is very difficult. It quickly leads to agitation, even if you pose no reason for it - no matter their opinion, people seem to feel put on the defensive (or offensive, sometimes). The opinion you get to hear often seems to be their Official Family Opinion. It's tends to be either very pro ("Korea made so much progress in that time") or very con ("a monster"). It varies regionally, too - people from down South in Gyeongsang tend to think differently on average than native Seoulites, say. Here's a bunch of interesting stuff: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gwangju_Uprising https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gwangju_Uprising is a key point in history. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GHu39FEFIks https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GHu39FEFIks is a recent politically-charged South Korean pop song. It's (intentionally paradoxically) interpreted by a young girl, but it was penned by an older, male composer. The lyrics are superficially waxing nostalgic about the Sogyeokdong district of Seoul, however during the times shown in flashbacks in the video, this used to be the location of the HQ of the Korean Defense Command, which ran a "School Greening Project" arresting and interrogating students believed to be activists in the democratization movement, and trying to turn them into informants. Several died. So when the girl sings "Do you remember Sogyeokdong? It hasn't changed at all ..." it's biting sarcasm. The music video directly features related events, including the haunting, eerie curfew sirens and government broadcasts about the SGP. If you want to do some serious learning, this is a very good book: http://www.amazon.com/The-Park-Chung-Hee-Transformation/dp/0674072316 http://www.amazon.com/The-Park-Chung-Hee-Transformation/dp/0... Disclaimer: I'm a German citizen living in Seoul, and I enjoy life here very much and am crazy-fond of the country and many of its people. Yet it's a very complicated place, in particular its 20th century history.
- HillRat 11y ago"[A former principal] said severe violence and military-style discipline were the only ways to run a place filled with thousands of unruly people who didn't want to be there." And the lessons of Nuremberg go unheeded again. Dear God, I hope there's standing for an ACTA claim, since it's damned certain ROK isn't going to try and make this inhumanity right again.
- fabulist 11y agoWhile I share your hope that there will be some service of justice, nothing could make that right.
- vinay427 11y agoTo be fair, GP said "try and make this inhumanity right again" which sounds very reasonable.
- HillRat 11y agoYeah, I deliberated on that, knowing that the victims who survived can never be made whole, let alone those who died beneath a shroud of official silence. I suppose I should have said "the ROK will never bring the guilty to justice," though a tort claim isn't real justice either.
- hasenj 11y ago> the lessons of Nuremberg Mind elaborating on that to people (like me) not deeply familiar with European history?
- reitanqild 11y agoMy takeaway from learning about Nürnberg was that everyone is responsible for their own actions and you are guilty even if you "just"followed orders.
- 13of40 11y agoWhat if you're under duress, which everyone in the military basically is at all times? (Nowadays, you typically have the right to refuse an order if you know it's illegal, but I doubt that was the case in the SS in 1944.)
- ddt_Osprey 11y agoFrom the article: [The Brothers Home, a mountainside institution] got government subsidies based on its number of inmates, so it pushed police to round up more vagrants, the early probe found. And police officers were often promoted depending on how many vagrants they picked up. Oh, so, kind of like this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kids_for_cash_scandal https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kids_for_cash_scandal Right?
- jessaustin 11y agoIMHO "cash for kids" was small potatoes compared to the Drug War. The prison-industrial complex has to eat, and it only eats two things: money and human lives. One would expect this behavior, to some extent, anywhere there are prisons.
- solotronics 11y agowe have the EFF for digital rights, is there something similar fighting on the side of individuals in the drug war? NORML I guess..
- jessaustin 11y agoPerhaps the best comparison is LEAP [0], although given the fact that most prominent members got their pension before joining I'd understand if someone were a bit suspicious. Actually I'm suspicious of non-profits in general. Non-profits have much more often created rather than ended awful laws. I appreciate those who advocate in principled fashion without hiring lawyers, accountants, and marketers. [0] http://www.leap.cc/ http://www.leap.cc/
- hackuser 11y agoThe ACLU.
- hirsin 11y agoMore like the Colombian False Positives, where the government gave US funds to the army based on how many kills they got. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/%22False_positives%22_scandal https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/%22False_positives%22_scanda...
- differentView 11y agoOff topic, but when a story involves multiple people with the same surname, they really should write out their full names at all times instead of just "Park" or "Kim".
- nickbauman 11y agoKim and Park are kinda like Smith and Jones in the Anglo world. I suspect it's not the real names.
- khuey 11y agoEven more so. Something like 20% of Koreans are surnamed Kim. Park is another 8% or so.
- mc32 11y agoApparently people used to buy in to more prestigious family names which lead to whittling down of Korean surnames.
- colanderman 11y agoWhy would the author choose the same fake name (Kim) for two people? They're definitely their real names.
- sna1l 11y agoI wasn't alive in the 80s, but it blows my mind that South Korea was a military dictatorship. I know this is common news to most people outside the West, but I think it is good that in this day of fast communication and very few places to hide, that tough information like this comes out, so we can deal with it and learn from our horrible mistakes. Not all saying I'm glad this happen, but at the very least, I hope we can all learn something from it.
- asdfologist 11y agoIt came out more than 30 years too late. Sadly, I doubt any senior leader responsible will face any repercussions. Either the public will forget or they'll imprison one minor scapegoat and move on.
- walrus01 11y agonot only was it a military dictatorship, it was a military dictatorship with its domestic, foreign and signals intelligence agencies set up by the CIA and NSA. Part of the historical and ongoing extensive cooperation between the US DoD and the South Korean armed forces. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Intelligence_Service_(South_Korea)#Korean_Central_Intelligence_Agency https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Intelligence_Service_...
- drauh 11y agoYes, a good reminder of why the hippie liberals refer to Imperialist America.
- contingencies 11y agoYou don't have to be a hippie liberal to see horrible truths in the history of post-WWII American foreign policy.
- ben_jones 11y agoAnd also the pre-WWII American foreign policy, including but not limited to the Philippines.
- awinter-py 11y agoOne more argument against militarization of the police force. We should recruit cops from the communities they serve, set a minimum age, disarm them, and emphasize negotiation skills over SWAT training.
- kloggian 11y agoAs a South Korean, I can firmly say that this is propaganda. The country's rapid and flourishing economic growth is due to the military dictatorship.(You can see historical charts for the evidence) Before any of them, the system was so chaotic. The "so-called" dictators unified the people to have a sense of patriotism that eventually gave them the incentive to work hard and live strong. They were also the people who stood against the North Korean spies that intentionally tried to infiltrate into the system with Marxist ideologies. The leaders during that time are still the most respected people in all Korean history. Even during the most notorious Jun-doo-hwan period the economy rapidly progressed. Unfortunately, during president Kim-Dae-Joong's period, people twisted history and defamed the previous dictators with propaganda. This president was the person who won Korea's first novel peace prize for funding North Korea with billions of dollars. This money was eventually used for building the nuclear bombs. Yet, many people still think of this as a great feat. In truth, it is shameful.
- yongjik 11y agoAs a South Korean, you're full of shit. Dictator Rhee Syngman was a fine murder who left us with, among other atrocities, this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bodo_League_massacre https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bodo_League_massacre Dictator Park Chung-hee was killed by his own aide (Kim Jae-gyu), while drinking with his servants, when Kim somehow snapped and decided Park should no longer live, for the sake of the country. Another aide (Cha Ji-cheol), also killed by Kim, reportedly remarked shortly before the shooting: > "캄보디아에 서는 300만 명 정도를 죽이고도 까딱 없었는데 우리도 데모대원 1∼200만 명 정도 죽인다고 까딱 있겠읍니까?" (Cambodia was fine after killing 3 millions. What's the problem if we kill a million or two of those demonstrators?) Oh, years before he became a dictator, Park was also a member of the Southern Labor Party (남조선로동당), a secret communist organization that worked toward a Marxist revolution in South Korea. Make of that what you will. Dictator Chun Doo-whan came to power by shooting his own people: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gwangju_Uprising https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gwangju_Uprising Among his other crimes, he's also credited with Samchung Educational Camp (삼청교육대), which basically committed the same crimes reported in the "Brothers Home" in the article, but in a national scale. Oh, by the way, Kim Young-Sam, who was a president (from a conservative party) before Kim Dae-joong, spent 3.2 billion dollars on North Korea... due to an international agreement (including the US and Japan) on building nuclear reactors in North Korea in exchange of NK giving up its nuclear arsenals. See: https://ko.wikipedia.org/wiki/%EC%A1%B0%EC%84%A0%EB%AF%BC%EC%A3%BC%EC%A3%BC%EC%9D%98%EC%9D%B8%EB%AF%BC%EA%B3%B5%ED%99%94%EA%B5%AD%EC%9D%98_%EC%9B%90%EC%9E%90%EB%A0%A5_%EB%B0%9C%EC%A0%84 https://ko.wikipedia.org/wiki/%EC%A1%B0%EC%84%A0%EB%AF%BC%EC... > 재원분담협상 결과 대한민국은 실 공사비의 70 %를 원화로 기여(46억 달러 기준으로 3조 5,420억원)하고 ... Apparently, the difference from Kim Dae-jung's "Sunshine policy" is that under conservative governments, we only do the paying, and let the US decide everything on how to handle the situation. It's supposed to make us feel more secure.
- nxzero 11y agoReading this is hard. It's graphic, shocking, and makes you wish you didn't read it. I don't know what else to say.
- beedogs 11y agoAdd another reason to the massive pile of reasons I avoid everything to do with the Olympics, and have for 20 years. They get neither my attention nor my money.
- pessimizer 11y agohttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tlatelolco_massacre https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tlatelolco_massacre It's a movement.
- known 11y agohttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dominant_minority https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dominant_minority should go and live in separate country
- deleted 11y ago[deleted]
- disposeofnick9 11y agoIt should come as no shock that, right now, the elderly in South Korea lack social security in absolute squalor and dignity. Most are abandoned by their families and left alone to kill themselves, usually by jumping off a bridge. There is some occassional food assistance, but there is rarely enough to go around.