8 ms·

Surreal and intriguing. There is a palpable sense of fear and unease on people's faces, not a smile to be seen. A gloomy insight into a whole other world. And q

by tobbyb 10y ago

Surreal and intriguing. There is a palpable sense of fear and unease on people's faces, not a smile to be seen. A gloomy insight into a whole other world. And questions assumptions about human behavior. Its frightening to think how easy it is to suppress a whole population for years and decades on end. The romantic image of courage, revolution and human freedom comes to naught here. Status quo, acceptance and survival seems to be the more natural human state. There is the natural reluctance to put one's head above. And for good reason, anyone foolish or brave enough to put their head above in this all knowing state will be put down swiftly, and perhaps brutally to be made an example of. How does change happen here? Organizing anything in this state of pervasive surveillance is nearly impossible and should be a wake up call for those sleepwalking into one. The only way we know from history is implosion of the prevailing power center or outside support motivated more by massive self interests than human freedom or kindness, compromising the road ahead. Surveillance, secret courts and dubious processes are meekly accepted but change can become very difficult once these infrastructures are put in place, operational and at the complete discretion of whoever happens to be in power. A warning for all of us.

Leszek 10y ago
I don't disagree with the general message of your comment, however: > There is a palpable sense of fear and unease on people's faces, not a smile to be seen. I'm not sure that if you took a picture on the London Tube or the NY Metro you'd see any smiles either.
- tobbyb 10y ago
  Isn't that more practiced indifference? There is no nervousness about it. It's hard to zero in on it but in this case there is an air of helplessness and despondency, with all that iconic imagery and hubris typical of totalitarian regimes. It all looks a bit too dire trivializing the people and magnifying their helplessness. It could just be our or my own prejudice and perspective knowing what we know about North Korea and reading more into these rather unique and powerful set of images, you just want people to be free and happy if possible. I don't know, bribe China, bribe North Korea, surely there must be a way to get those holding the strings to let go and to do it not because of nuclear weapons, strategic interests or business but to set the people free. What a moment it will be. Humanity would have truly prevailed.
  - Declanomous 10y ago
    Sounds like an example of the Kuleshov Effect: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kuleshov_Effect https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kuleshov_Effect
  - pavel_lishin 10y ago
    > with all that iconic imagery and hubris typical of totalitarian regimes. I think all that iconic imagery is probably biasing you. I'm not saying that DPRK is a wonderland, but I'd wager that if you took photos of the Pyongang, Moscow Metro, London, Tokyo and New York subways and randomly swapped the various backgrounds, a casual viewer would view the Soviet-influenced Moscow- and Pyongyang-background passengers as gloomy, and the New York- and London-background ones as having "practiced indifference". (You'd probably have to be clever with the composition, though - seeing obviously-British people or people of African descent with Mao or Lenin behind them would be a little jarring, and a bit out of place.) I kind of want to do this now, but don't think I have the time today.
  - zodPod 10y ago
    > It could just be our or my own prejudice and perspective knowing what we know about North Korea and reading more into these rather unique and powerful set of images, you just want people to be free and happy if possible. This, I can't help but think he'd have a different opinion if some of these pictures were shown out of context without any indication that it's NK.
  - effie 10y ago
    > I don't know, bribe China, bribe North Korea, surely there must be a way to get those holding the strings to let go and to do it not because of nuclear weapons, strategic interests or business but to set the people free. What a moment it will be. Humanity would have truly prevailed. The desire for change must come out of North Korea inhabitants, then other states can help. Otherwise what you're suggesting would be externally orchestrated regime change, a thing that usually ends up badly for the people living there.
vonmoltke 10y ago
> There is the natural reluctance to put one's head above. And for good reason, anyone foolish or brave enough to put their head above in this all knowing state will be put down swiftly, and perhaps brutally to be made an example of. How does change happen here? > Organizing anything in this state of pervasive surveillance is nearly impossible and should be a wake up call for those sleepwalking into one. I saw this sentiment expressed by another poster yesterday and almost responded, but this seems like a much better context. I, personally, agree that pervasive surveillance is a bad thing and that the power of government should be carefully restricted. That said, what is the path from "pervasive surveillance" to "be[ing] put down swiftly, and perhaps brutally to be made an example of"? North Korea's state has the willingness and power to chop down those who stand up; how would one of the nations "sleepwalking into [a state of pervasive surveillance]" get away with it? I can certainly see, and articulate, dangers involving minority targeting. Similarly, I can articulate the dangers of isolated cases of abuse of power. I cannot, however, articulate a path for a liberal Western nation to become North Korea (or even China) without delving into tinfoil hat territory.
- tobbyb 10y ago
  That's a classic slippery slope, isn't it? How would you know and how would you stop it. Are you able to stop the surveillance, the secret courts, harassment of activists and whistle blowers, the double speak and duplicitous justifications today? You won't even know were it not for Snowden at great cost to himself, not an easy decision when the first impulse is to put your head down. And 'allegations' would be met with 'tinfoil hat' you just used. How will you then detect and stop it tomorrow? Wait for another Snowden? Another sacrifice? Is there some defined point at which the population just stands up and says no. Or is it just faith? Our democratic systems allow us to say yes, but not no. There are huge flaws with accountability, choice and capture by vested interests that remain unsolved. And now we have creeping surveillance, self serving justifications and arbitrary governance processes to deal with. Few of us have the privilege to stand up and say no, too engrossed in day to day life. There is no clear mechanism to say no beyond protest and we can see how repressively liberal western democracies are dealing with dissent and protest today, infiltrating and tracking activists, protests and general harassment, something unthinkable at the height of liberal posturing during the bulk of the cold war. Isn't it way beyond the point of faith.
rdtsc 10y ago
It could be cultural as well. I remember showing pictures of my childhood in Soviet Union to people in America and they'd comment how gloomy and sad everyone looked -- even at birthday parties. The thing is we weren't gloomy and sad (well not all the time even though we were poor). We just didn't smile in pictures. So not saying people are not scared and oppressed there. We know they are. But some of the reactions could be cultural as well not all due oppression.
- Mikeb85 10y ago
  Had slavic (Ukrainian) grandparents and many other relatives. Can confirm, they don't smile in pictures (despite living in North America), at least the older generation...
- silencio 10y ago
  Maybe there's an old shared South and North Korean cultural thing going on? I am American born Korean and I always forget not to smile. Every Korean wedding photo I'm in I'm smiling while everyone else looks somber even if I know they're super happy. My own wedding photos have my relatives struggling to smile. Lovely mix of photos. :p
  - crdoconnor 10y ago
    South Koreans do the mass crying thing as well (e.g. Park Chung Hee's death)
- freshyill 10y ago
  I saw a group of Asian tourists line up and take each other's photos in front of the Venus De Milo at the Louvre. Each one had the most grim expression on their face. Everyone seemed perfectly happy before and after.
mindslight 10y ago
> Organizing anything in this state of pervasive surveillance is nearly impossible and should be a wake up call for those sleepwalking into one. Is North Korea even in a state of pervasive surveillance by modern standards? Their technology is not all too advanced. It's the thought of being listened to that keeps people in line, more than the technical implementation. And that overwhelming condition is really the result of propaganda - communication fanout rather than fanin.
- avn2109 10y ago
  Presumably the DPRK secret police are using the tried and true low tech surveillance method of turning everyone into an informer, a la the Stasi.
  - mindslight 10y ago
    Sure - especially enlisting amateurs with "if you hear something and don't report it, you're part of the conspiracy". It still takes a sense of being overwhelmed for the ambivalent to take that seriously.
zodPod 10y ago
It's also worth noting that these people generally don't appear to be aware that their picture is being taken. Though I'm a happy person, my resting face isn't necessarily going to look any happier than these.
crdoconnor 10y ago
>There is a palpable sense of fear and unease on people's faces As opposed to 8:30am on the NYC Metro or the London underground that's positively a sea of smiles?

by tobbyb 10y ago

Leszek 10y ago

I don't disagree with the general message of your comment, however: > There is a palpable sense of fear and unease on people's faces, not a smile to be seen. I'm not sure that if you took a picture on the London Tube or the NY Metro you'd see any smiles either.

tobbyb 10y ago
Isn't that more practiced indifference? There is no nervousness about it. It's hard to zero in on it but in this case there is an air of helplessness and despondency, with all that iconic imagery and hubris typical of totalitarian regimes. It all looks a bit too dire trivializing the people and magnifying their helplessness. It could just be our or my own prejudice and perspective knowing what we know about North Korea and reading more into these rather unique and powerful set of images, you just want people to be free and happy if possible. I don't know, bribe China, bribe North Korea, surely there must be a way to get those holding the strings to let go and to do it not because of nuclear weapons, strategic interests or business but to set the people free. What a moment it will be. Humanity would have truly prevailed.
- Declanomous 10y ago
  Sounds like an example of the Kuleshov Effect: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kuleshov_Effect https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kuleshov_Effect
- pavel_lishin 10y ago
  > with all that iconic imagery and hubris typical of totalitarian regimes. I think all that iconic imagery is probably biasing you. I'm not saying that DPRK is a wonderland, but I'd wager that if you took photos of the Pyongang, Moscow Metro, London, Tokyo and New York subways and randomly swapped the various backgrounds, a casual viewer would view the Soviet-influenced Moscow- and Pyongyang-background passengers as gloomy, and the New York- and London-background ones as having "practiced indifference". (You'd probably have to be clever with the composition, though - seeing obviously-British people or people of African descent with Mao or Lenin behind them would be a little jarring, and a bit out of place.) I kind of want to do this now, but don't think I have the time today.
- zodPod 10y ago
  > It could just be our or my own prejudice and perspective knowing what we know about North Korea and reading more into these rather unique and powerful set of images, you just want people to be free and happy if possible. This, I can't help but think he'd have a different opinion if some of these pictures were shown out of context without any indication that it's NK.
- effie 10y ago
  > I don't know, bribe China, bribe North Korea, surely there must be a way to get those holding the strings to let go and to do it not because of nuclear weapons, strategic interests or business but to set the people free. What a moment it will be. Humanity would have truly prevailed. The desire for change must come out of North Korea inhabitants, then other states can help. Otherwise what you're suggesting would be externally orchestrated regime change, a thing that usually ends up badly for the people living there.

vonmoltke 10y ago

> There is the natural reluctance to put one's head above. And for good reason, anyone foolish or brave enough to put their head above in this all knowing state will be put down swiftly, and perhaps brutally to be made an example of. How does change happen here? > Organizing anything in this state of pervasive surveillance is nearly impossible and should be a wake up call for those sleepwalking into one. I saw this sentiment expressed by another poster yesterday and almost responded, but this seems like a much better context. I, personally, agree that pervasive surveillance is a bad thing and that the power of government should be carefully restricted. That said, what is the path from "pervasive surveillance" to "be[ing] put down swiftly, and perhaps brutally to be made an example of"? North Korea's state has the willingness and power to chop down those who stand up; how would one of the nations "sleepwalking into [a state of pervasive surveillance]" get away with it? I can certainly see, and articulate, dangers involving minority targeting. Similarly, I can articulate the dangers of isolated cases of abuse of power. I cannot, however, articulate a path for a liberal Western nation to become North Korea (or even China) without delving into tinfoil hat territory.

tobbyb 10y ago
That's a classic slippery slope, isn't it? How would you know and how would you stop it. Are you able to stop the surveillance, the secret courts, harassment of activists and whistle blowers, the double speak and duplicitous justifications today? You won't even know were it not for Snowden at great cost to himself, not an easy decision when the first impulse is to put your head down. And 'allegations' would be met with 'tinfoil hat' you just used. How will you then detect and stop it tomorrow? Wait for another Snowden? Another sacrifice? Is there some defined point at which the population just stands up and says no. Or is it just faith? Our democratic systems allow us to say yes, but not no. There are huge flaws with accountability, choice and capture by vested interests that remain unsolved. And now we have creeping surveillance, self serving justifications and arbitrary governance processes to deal with. Few of us have the privilege to stand up and say no, too engrossed in day to day life. There is no clear mechanism to say no beyond protest and we can see how repressively liberal western democracies are dealing with dissent and protest today, infiltrating and tracking activists, protests and general harassment, something unthinkable at the height of liberal posturing during the bulk of the cold war. Isn't it way beyond the point of faith.

rdtsc 10y ago

It could be cultural as well. I remember showing pictures of my childhood in Soviet Union to people in America and they'd comment how gloomy and sad everyone looked -- even at birthday parties. The thing is we weren't gloomy and sad (well not all the time even though we were poor). We just didn't smile in pictures. So not saying people are not scared and oppressed there. We know they are. But some of the reactions could be cultural as well not all due oppression.

Mikeb85 10y ago
Had slavic (Ukrainian) grandparents and many other relatives. Can confirm, they don't smile in pictures (despite living in North America), at least the older generation...
silencio 10y ago
Maybe there's an old shared South and North Korean cultural thing going on? I am American born Korean and I always forget not to smile. Every Korean wedding photo I'm in I'm smiling while everyone else looks somber even if I know they're super happy. My own wedding photos have my relatives struggling to smile. Lovely mix of photos. :p
- crdoconnor 10y ago
  South Koreans do the mass crying thing as well (e.g. Park Chung Hee's death)
freshyill 10y ago
I saw a group of Asian tourists line up and take each other's photos in front of the Venus De Milo at the Louvre. Each one had the most grim expression on their face. Everyone seemed perfectly happy before and after.

mindslight 10y ago

> Organizing anything in this state of pervasive surveillance is nearly impossible and should be a wake up call for those sleepwalking into one. Is North Korea even in a state of pervasive surveillance by modern standards? Their technology is not all too advanced. It's the thought of being listened to that keeps people in line, more than the technical implementation. And that overwhelming condition is really the result of propaganda - communication fanout rather than fanin.

avn2109 10y ago
Presumably the DPRK secret police are using the tried and true low tech surveillance method of turning everyone into an informer, a la the Stasi.
- mindslight 10y ago
  Sure - especially enlisting amateurs with "if you hear something and don't report it, you're part of the conspiracy". It still takes a sense of being overwhelmed for the ambivalent to take that seriously.

zodPod 10y ago

It's also worth noting that these people generally don't appear to be aware that their picture is being taken. Though I'm a happy person, my resting face isn't necessarily going to look any happier than these.

crdoconnor 10y ago

>There is a palpable sense of fear and unease on people's faces As opposed to 8:30am on the NYC Metro or the London underground that's positively a sea of smiles?