5 ms·

As awful as North Korea is, I am _really_ impressed at the cleanliness of the subway station in the photos. Not a scrap of litter, no graffiti, no sketchy peop

As awful as North Korea is, I am _really_ impressed at the cleanliness of the subway station in the photos. Not a scrap of litter, no graffiti, no sketchy people and probably doesn't even smell like piss. Floors are obviously meticulously scrubbed. Kudos to North Korea! (OK, I know its an oppressive hellhole, but goddamn the subways are clean). Meanwhile, in NYC, we have viral video of a rat dragging Pizza down stairs in a subway.

jhbadger 11y ago
This was also true in the not quite as oppressive (but still oppressive by Western standards) Eastern European dictatorships pre-1989. It's from a combination of reasons -- fear that graffiti/litter would get you in trouble and the fact that in order to approach full employment, many more people were involved in cleaning than under capitalism.
- emodendroket 11y ago
  Higher employment achieved by keeping public services at a higher standard doesn't sound like such a horrible idea to borrow from those regimes.
  - jonknee 11y ago
    It's not affordable unless you're an oppressive totalitarian regime.
    - emodendroket 11y ago
      [Citation needed]
      - jonknee 11y ago
        We're already running huge deficits... No citation is needed to understand that hiring a massive number of people to pick up litter is unaffordable.
        forgottenpass 11y ago
        You say that like we're not running huge deficits by design, on purpose, and with the approval of those most empowered to effect change.
        Mikeb85 11y ago
        > We're already running huge deficits... In large part due to massive governmental inefficiencies, massive defence spending, and because the richest individuals and corporations hardly pay any tax on their (real) earnings...
    - crdoconnor 11y ago
      Isn't it weird how it's not affordable to pay for a new public service but as soon that job is being done you're told not to get too attached because a robot will be along promptly to replace you?
  - tragomaskhalos 11y ago
    This is very true; some years ago a friend who works for the Foreign Office was posted to Tunisia, and we went to visit her there. She pointed out a guy at a traffic intersection in a splendid uniform with white gloves, waving on and halting the traffic, basically doing the job of a set of traffic lights. This would have been derided in Europe or the US, and yet here was a guy with a purpose to his life rather than sitting around unemployed. Even the uniform seemed designed to imbue the job with kudos.
- rawTruthHurts 11y ago
  > in order to approach full employment Maybe Cameron could get some ideas from good ol' Kim
- pound 11y ago
  Or may be some people don't litter not because of fear of trouble but because they know how to behave? Also about more cleaning: there is a proverb that sounds something like "It's clean not where a lot of cleaning has place but where people are not littering"
takno 11y ago
The New York subway could make almost anywhere look clean. Certainly every subway I've been on in Europe was spotless by comparison, and even the ones elsewhere in the US were pretty good.
- radicality 11y ago
  It's quite horrible. I've moved to NYC recently and had to get an apartment close to work to make sure I don't have to use the subway system.
throwanem 11y ago
Yes, and the trains run on time, too.
bkeroack 11y ago
If NYC decided to punish littering by imprisoning you, your entire family, and all of your descendants in perpetuity in some of the world's worst labor/torture/starvation camps....NYC would be pretty spotless too.
- crispyambulance 11y ago
  Yeah, I get what you're saying. But what would it take to keep folks in NYC from littering? Is that the only way people stop littering-- when they're threatened with imprisonment, flogging, or worse?
  - xemoka 11y ago
    Ask Singapore? A combination of fines for littering, huge city clean-up crews, and the "Broken Window" theory [1] [1] https://www.wikiwand.com/en/Broken_windows_theory https://www.wikiwand.com/en/Broken_windows_theory
nommm-nommm 11y ago
DPRK's subway system is clean because the punishment for littering is so severe. if someone gets a ticket for littering in NYC people on HN are all up in arms. I don't have a link for it now but take a look at the comments for the story about the policing slowdown in New York when they stopped writing tickets for parking, turnstile jumping, and other minor offenses. People were all like "yeah, we don't need parking tickets! Society works fine without them, they are just for revenue! Punishment does nothing to effect behavior!"

jhbadger 11y ago

This was also true in the not quite as oppressive (but still oppressive by Western standards) Eastern European dictatorships pre-1989. It's from a combination of reasons -- fear that graffiti/litter would get you in trouble and the fact that in order to approach full employment, many more people were involved in cleaning than under capitalism.

emodendroket 11y ago
Higher employment achieved by keeping public services at a higher standard doesn't sound like such a horrible idea to borrow from those regimes.
- jonknee 11y ago
  It's not affordable unless you're an oppressive totalitarian regime.
  - emodendroket 11y ago
    [Citation needed]
    - jonknee 11y ago
      We're already running huge deficits... No citation is needed to understand that hiring a massive number of people to pick up litter is unaffordable.
      - forgottenpass 11y ago
        You say that like we're not running huge deficits by design, on purpose, and with the approval of those most empowered to effect change.
      - Mikeb85 11y ago
        > We're already running huge deficits... In large part due to massive governmental inefficiencies, massive defence spending, and because the richest individuals and corporations hardly pay any tax on their (real) earnings...
  - crdoconnor 11y ago
    Isn't it weird how it's not affordable to pay for a new public service but as soon that job is being done you're told not to get too attached because a robot will be along promptly to replace you?
- tragomaskhalos 11y ago
  This is very true; some years ago a friend who works for the Foreign Office was posted to Tunisia, and we went to visit her there. She pointed out a guy at a traffic intersection in a splendid uniform with white gloves, waving on and halting the traffic, basically doing the job of a set of traffic lights. This would have been derided in Europe or the US, and yet here was a guy with a purpose to his life rather than sitting around unemployed. Even the uniform seemed designed to imbue the job with kudos.
rawTruthHurts 11y ago
> in order to approach full employment Maybe Cameron could get some ideas from good ol' Kim
pound 11y ago
Or may be some people don't litter not because of fear of trouble but because they know how to behave? Also about more cleaning: there is a proverb that sounds something like "It's clean not where a lot of cleaning has place but where people are not littering"

takno 11y ago

The New York subway could make almost anywhere look clean. Certainly every subway I've been on in Europe was spotless by comparison, and even the ones elsewhere in the US were pretty good.

radicality 11y ago
It's quite horrible. I've moved to NYC recently and had to get an apartment close to work to make sure I don't have to use the subway system.

throwanem 11y ago

Yes, and the trains run on time, too.

bkeroack 11y ago

If NYC decided to punish littering by imprisoning you, your entire family, and all of your descendants in perpetuity in some of the world's worst labor/torture/starvation camps....NYC would be pretty spotless too.

crispyambulance 11y ago
Yeah, I get what you're saying. But what would it take to keep folks in NYC from littering? Is that the only way people stop littering-- when they're threatened with imprisonment, flogging, or worse?
- xemoka 11y ago
  Ask Singapore? A combination of fines for littering, huge city clean-up crews, and the "Broken Window" theory [1] [1] https://www.wikiwand.com/en/Broken_windows_theory https://www.wikiwand.com/en/Broken_windows_theory

nommm-nommm 11y ago

DPRK's subway system is clean because the punishment for littering is so severe. if someone gets a ticket for littering in NYC people on HN are all up in arms. I don't have a link for it now but take a look at the comments for the story about the policing slowdown in New York when they stopped writing tickets for parking, turnstile jumping, and other minor offenses. People were all like "yeah, we don't need parking tickets! Society works fine without them, they are just for revenue! Punishment does nothing to effect behavior!"