5 ms·

Whatever the realities of the cost of solar, I tend to worry about a future in which we cover vast swaths of areas with solar panels and the impact such a thing

by levemi 10y ago

Whatever the realities of the cost of solar, I tend to worry about a future in which we cover vast swaths of areas with solar panels and the impact such a thing will have on the environment. I don't know if anyone has done good studies on it. A bunch other sustainable forms of energy have environmental problems. Wind generators cause harm to birds, geothermal electricity sources like in Hawai'i raise the temperature of bodies of water disrupting wildlife. Nuclear power comes with great risks of radiation leakage. Biofuel is hugely inefficient. It seems any solution comes with problems.

staticelf 10y ago
It will probably be less worrysome than what we do today, covering a lot of the earth with animals that is horrible for the environment.
- collyw 10y ago
  Humans are the only animals that seem to have a significant environmental impact.
  - jessaustin 10y ago
    Parent probably meant humans, or perhaps cattle as well...
drjesusphd 10y ago
Those problems you cited all pale in comparison to global warming. It's a disingenuous comparison.
- levemi 10y ago
  These problems pale in comparison partly because these sustainable forms of technology aren't being used any meaningful scale yet. How much area do we have to cover with solar panels to power a largish metropolitan area?
  - hnarn 10y ago
    The best location for covering a large area of land for purposes of solar energy would arguably be a desert. "90% of the world’s population lives within range of a desert and could be supplied with solar electricity from there", says this article, which also shows you how much needs to be covered to supply the entire globe in theory: http://cleantechnica.com/2009/06/22/half-a-trillion-dollars-to-build-huge-desertec-plan/ http://cleantechnica.com/2009/06/22/half-a-trillion-dollars-...
    - xaldir 10y ago
      No it's not. Solar panels must be free from dust to remain efficient, meaning you have to clean them, frequently, with water...
      - Intermernet 10y ago
        There are patents regarding ultrasonic cleaning of panels[1]. Not sure about actual products yet. [1]: http://www.google.com/patents/US20120285516 http://www.google.com/patents/US20120285516
      - u_me_him 10y ago
        There is some type of coating that doesn't allow anything to stick to it. That is a start. I think is called enduroshield. It is not a permanent solution because it wears down but it would help.
    - levemi 10y ago
      The desert is full of life that would be impacted by these panels.
      - SideburnsOfDoom 10y ago
        As compared to the environmental impact of coal, oil and gas, really? Are you joking?
  - kristopolous 10y ago
leg100 10y ago
> I don't know if anyone has done good studies on it. And why would they! If an industry or country can get an advantage out of a renewable tech, it's not in their interests to fund studies if they could give the wrong answers. That's the reality of it. Biofuel was a good case in point, it's proponents are now back peddling pretty fast. The drive to profit forbids foresight. You can add diesel cars, electric cars, and CFD, LED bulbs to that list too.
aaimnr 10y ago
Have a look at this picture - it shows the total area needed to be covered by solar to power the whole world. With efficient energy transmission technology the area is negligilbe. http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2015/10/07/17/2D2AF40100000578-3263721-image-a-2_1444234219129.jpg http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2015/10/07/17/2D2AF4010000057...
WalterBright 10y ago
> Wind generators cause harm to birds Domestic cats kill 1.3 .. 4.0 billion birds a year just in the US: https://www.sciencenews.org/article/cats-kill-more-one-billion-birds-each-year https://www.sciencenews.org/article/cats-kill-more-one-billi... Even the high estimates for bird kills by windmills are 2 to 3 orders of magnitude lower: http://savetheeaglesinternational.org/new/us-windfarms-kill-10-20-times-more-than-previously-thought.html http://savetheeaglesinternational.org/new/us-windfarms-kill-...
SideburnsOfDoom 10y ago
> Whatever the realities of the cost of solar, I tend to worry about a future in which we cover vast swaths of areas with solar panels and the impact such a thing will have on the environment. Compared to the downsides of coal and gas and the risks of nuclear? I really don't think you should worry.
codeulike 10y ago
Surface Area of solar panels needed to power the world: http://landartgenerator.org/blagi/wp-content/uploads/2009/08/AreaRequired1000.jpg http://landartgenerator.org/blagi/wp-content/uploads/2009/08... Its less than you think. Most of them could be on rooftops.
Intermernet 10y ago
> Wind generators cause harm to birds This is an often repeated exaggeration. The Australian government did a study on this[1] as it was claimed that the Orange-bellied Parrot (an endangered species) was at risk from wind farm developments. They concluded: "The potential threat that wind farm developments in Tasmania, western Victoria and south-eastern South Australia pose to the Orange-bellied Parrot has been quantified in the Wind farm Birdstrike Cumulative Risk Assessment Report (Smales et al. 2005). The assessment report concluded that the predicted annual cumulative mortality rate from all the wind farms modelled corresponds to an additional Orange-bellied Parrot mortality of around one bird per year." The full study. "Wind farm collision risk for birds" can be found at [2]. [1]: http://www.environment.gov.au/cgi-bin/sprat/public/publicspecies.pl?taxon_id=747 http://www.environment.gov.au/cgi-bin/sprat/public/publicspe... [2]: http://www.environment.gov.au/system/files/resources/2d42fcbd-31ea-4739-b109-b420571338a3/files/wind-farm-bird-risk.pdf http://www.environment.gov.au/system/files/resources/2d42fcb...
- ageofwant 10y ago
  Which can also be alleviated by reducing the local cat population by 0.2%
  - Intermernet 10y ago
    I once drove from Sydney to Cooktown (according to Google, 30hrs over 2720.4km, which sounds about right) and horribly managed to kill 2 birds, 1 wombat and 1 wallaby. I'd hate to think what the truck transport industry kills with every single trip compared to this apparent risk from wind-farms.
    - ageofwant 10y ago
      Last month I drove from Launceston to Scottsdale, I stopped counting dead wallabys at I recon about 120 (pademelons propably, hard to tell if their spread so thin). Many of those were in pairs, a bigger smear, followed by a smaller, joey-sized smear... Amazingly I only almost killed one, and managed to drive over a echidna (missed him) Took the fun edge of an otherwise very pleasant island trip.

by levemi 10y ago

staticelf 10y ago

It will probably be less worrysome than what we do today, covering a lot of the earth with animals that is horrible for the environment.

collyw 10y ago
Humans are the only animals that seem to have a significant environmental impact.
- jessaustin 10y ago
  Parent probably meant humans, or perhaps cattle as well...

drjesusphd 10y ago

Those problems you cited all pale in comparison to global warming. It's a disingenuous comparison.

levemi 10y ago
These problems pale in comparison partly because these sustainable forms of technology aren't being used any meaningful scale yet. How much area do we have to cover with solar panels to power a largish metropolitan area?
- hnarn 10y ago
  The best location for covering a large area of land for purposes of solar energy would arguably be a desert. "90% of the world’s population lives within range of a desert and could be supplied with solar electricity from there", says this article, which also shows you how much needs to be covered to supply the entire globe in theory: http://cleantechnica.com/2009/06/22/half-a-trillion-dollars-to-build-huge-desertec-plan/ http://cleantechnica.com/2009/06/22/half-a-trillion-dollars-...
  - xaldir 10y ago
    No it's not. Solar panels must be free from dust to remain efficient, meaning you have to clean them, frequently, with water...
    - Intermernet 10y ago
      There are patents regarding ultrasonic cleaning of panels[1]. Not sure about actual products yet. [1]: http://www.google.com/patents/US20120285516 http://www.google.com/patents/US20120285516
    - u_me_him 10y ago
      There is some type of coating that doesn't allow anything to stick to it. That is a start. I think is called enduroshield. It is not a permanent solution because it wears down but it would help.
  - levemi 10y ago
    The desert is full of life that would be impacted by these panels.
    - SideburnsOfDoom 10y ago
      As compared to the environmental impact of coal, oil and gas, really? Are you joking?
- kristopolous 10y ago

leg100 10y ago

> I don't know if anyone has done good studies on it. And why would they! If an industry or country can get an advantage out of a renewable tech, it's not in their interests to fund studies if they could give the wrong answers. That's the reality of it. Biofuel was a good case in point, it's proponents are now back peddling pretty fast. The drive to profit forbids foresight. You can add diesel cars, electric cars, and CFD, LED bulbs to that list too.

aaimnr 10y ago

Have a look at this picture - it shows the total area needed to be covered by solar to power the whole world. With efficient energy transmission technology the area is negligilbe. http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2015/10/07/17/2D2AF40100000578-3263721-image-a-2_1444234219129.jpg http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2015/10/07/17/2D2AF4010000057...

WalterBright 10y ago

> Wind generators cause harm to birds Domestic cats kill 1.3 .. 4.0 billion birds a year just in the US: https://www.sciencenews.org/article/cats-kill-more-one-billion-birds-each-year https://www.sciencenews.org/article/cats-kill-more-one-billi... Even the high estimates for bird kills by windmills are 2 to 3 orders of magnitude lower: http://savetheeaglesinternational.org/new/us-windfarms-kill-10-20-times-more-than-previously-thought.html http://savetheeaglesinternational.org/new/us-windfarms-kill-...

SideburnsOfDoom 10y ago

> Whatever the realities of the cost of solar, I tend to worry about a future in which we cover vast swaths of areas with solar panels and the impact such a thing will have on the environment. Compared to the downsides of coal and gas and the risks of nuclear? I really don't think you should worry.

codeulike 10y ago

Surface Area of solar panels needed to power the world: http://landartgenerator.org/blagi/wp-content/uploads/2009/08/AreaRequired1000.jpg http://landartgenerator.org/blagi/wp-content/uploads/2009/08... Its less than you think. Most of them could be on rooftops.

Intermernet 10y ago

> Wind generators cause harm to birds This is an often repeated exaggeration. The Australian government did a study on this[1] as it was claimed that the Orange-bellied Parrot (an endangered species) was at risk from wind farm developments. They concluded: "The potential threat that wind farm developments in Tasmania, western Victoria and south-eastern South Australia pose to the Orange-bellied Parrot has been quantified in the Wind farm Birdstrike Cumulative Risk Assessment Report (Smales et al. 2005). The assessment report concluded that the predicted annual cumulative mortality rate from all the wind farms modelled corresponds to an additional Orange-bellied Parrot mortality of around one bird per year." The full study. "Wind farm collision risk for birds" can be found at [2]. [1]: http://www.environment.gov.au/cgi-bin/sprat/public/publicspecies.pl?taxon_id=747 http://www.environment.gov.au/cgi-bin/sprat/public/publicspe... [2]: http://www.environment.gov.au/system/files/resources/2d42fcbd-31ea-4739-b109-b420571338a3/files/wind-farm-bird-risk.pdf http://www.environment.gov.au/system/files/resources/2d42fcb...

ageofwant 10y ago
Which can also be alleviated by reducing the local cat population by 0.2%
- Intermernet 10y ago
  I once drove from Sydney to Cooktown (according to Google, 30hrs over 2720.4km, which sounds about right) and horribly managed to kill 2 birds, 1 wombat and 1 wallaby. I'd hate to think what the truck transport industry kills with every single trip compared to this apparent risk from wind-farms.
  - ageofwant 10y ago
    Last month I drove from Launceston to Scottsdale, I stopped counting dead wallabys at I recon about 120 (pademelons propably, hard to tell if their spread so thin). Many of those were in pairs, a bigger smear, followed by a smaller, joey-sized smear... Amazingly I only almost killed one, and managed to drive over a echidna (missed him) Took the fun edge of an otherwise very pleasant island trip.