6 ms·

If you ignore all women socially at work, you're going to end up discriminating against women. People have a strong tendency to select for what they already kn

by labster 11y ago

If you ignore all women socially at work, you're going to end up discriminating against women. People have a strong tendency to select for what they already know. If you have a hiring choice between a theoretically equal woman and an equal man, you'll probably want to select the man because you'd feel safe to interact with him socially. You won't because it's Wrong, but what about all of the little decisions you don't think about so hard? Even if you were outside of management, you'd still be marginalizing the women on your team by your actions -- making an in group and an out group. It's possible to run so far from sexual harassment you run into sexual discrimination. I don't know if there is an answer to this other than "be a nice person". Not trying to pick on parent in particular, just trying to illustrate how thorny the issues are.

backpocket 11y ago
So in our pursuit of equality, men are now between a rock and a hard place: treat women equally, but not too equally; treat them differently, but not too differently - or you will be discriminating. "Please discriminate: just very, very carefully and very, very skillfully."
- bittercynic 11y ago
  In my experience (as a man) all you have to do is treat people with respect and you'll be fine. There are occasionally times when I enter a room where a woman was alone and I can see that my mere presence is making her very uncomfortable and she feels that she can't say/do anything. At those times I quickly excuse myself with a quick "Hello, goodbye" or something. This really doesn't seem like such a tricky issue if you're just respectful and conscious of the discomfort of others.
  - nogbit 11y ago
    Respect...exactly right! I've never had a problem and the respect is reciprocated for 20 years now in my career. I've never had to excuse myself either, if it's only 2 people in the room just start a damm conversation. Talking is really easier than you think.
  - drunken-serval 11y ago
    This assumes you have the social skills and awareness of your surroundings to notice when you've made someone uncomfortable. I'll often go to the break room with headphones on and make tea while I puzzle through some code I had been working on. I'm barely aware there are other people in the room.
    - FilterSweep 11y ago
      > I'll often go to the break room with headphones on and make tea while I puzzle through some code I had been working on. It's sometimes in those moments when you come across a solution you wouldn't have thought of at your desk. YMMV though.
    - reitanqild 11y ago
      > This assumes you have the social skills and awareness of your surroundings to notice when you've made someone uncomfortable. Spot on. I rarely recognize I made people uncomfortable but reading all these discussions I guess I do :-/ OTOH, I try to be nice to everyone, -that way I should (theoretically) have less to worry about.
grahamburger 11y ago
That's exactly the 'interesting side effect' I was referring to. I try to compensate by 1) not interacting socially with most people at work, especially people who work for me (so there's not an in/out group) and 2) trying to make a conscious effort to have a good professional relationship with people I work with, as far as possible without it becoming social. IE I will have business discussions with everyone, but leave the personal anecdotes and social interaction at home. That leaves me being viewed as a little bit aloof and anti-social, which could be a problem except that I've always been viewed that way anyway so it comes naturally. But yeah, there are traps on both ends of that spectrum and littered through the middle and no clear cut solution.
bittercynic 11y ago
I think it is pretty safe for a man to socialize with men and women at work, but you have to recognize signals that a person doesn't want to talk to you and find a gracious way to deal with that. If an adult is unable to recognize those basic signals, what training options are available to get up-to-speed?
- grahamburger 11y ago
  I think that every person that I regularly interact with socially I have both offended and been offended by in some way. I suspect that that's just part of normal human interaction. But it seems like any offense from a man to a woman can be considered sexual harassment, which I would say makes those interactions dangerous. Also note that I wouldn't blame women for this issue. It's really the fault of (mostly) men who are aggressively and shamelessly harassing women and putting everyone on edge.
  - GFK_of_xmaspast 11y ago
    > But it seems like any offense from a man to a woman can be considered sexual harassment Have you considered that this is not in fact the case.
- bsder 11y ago
  > I think it is pretty safe for a man to socialize with men and women at work, but you have to recognize signals that a person doesn't want to talk to you and find a gracious way to deal with that. Really? Recognize the signals in the single most ambiguous pursuit in human nature? Unless you're Brad Pitt, some women will find advances unwanted. Others will welcome them. One cannot differentiate that until after having made the, possibly unwanted, advance.
  - bittercynic 11y ago
    Is socializing the same as making advances for you? I agree, making advances is risky, and you probably shouldn't do it at work, or at the workplace of the person you're making advances towards.

by labster 11y ago

backpocket 11y ago

So in our pursuit of equality, men are now between a rock and a hard place: treat women equally, but not too equally; treat them differently, but not too differently - or you will be discriminating. "Please discriminate: just very, very carefully and very, very skillfully."

bittercynic 11y ago
In my experience (as a man) all you have to do is treat people with respect and you'll be fine. There are occasionally times when I enter a room where a woman was alone and I can see that my mere presence is making her very uncomfortable and she feels that she can't say/do anything. At those times I quickly excuse myself with a quick "Hello, goodbye" or something. This really doesn't seem like such a tricky issue if you're just respectful and conscious of the discomfort of others.
- nogbit 11y ago
  Respect...exactly right! I've never had a problem and the respect is reciprocated for 20 years now in my career. I've never had to excuse myself either, if it's only 2 people in the room just start a damm conversation. Talking is really easier than you think.
- drunken-serval 11y ago
  This assumes you have the social skills and awareness of your surroundings to notice when you've made someone uncomfortable. I'll often go to the break room with headphones on and make tea while I puzzle through some code I had been working on. I'm barely aware there are other people in the room.
  - FilterSweep 11y ago
    > I'll often go to the break room with headphones on and make tea while I puzzle through some code I had been working on. It's sometimes in those moments when you come across a solution you wouldn't have thought of at your desk. YMMV though.
  - reitanqild 11y ago
    > This assumes you have the social skills and awareness of your surroundings to notice when you've made someone uncomfortable. Spot on. I rarely recognize I made people uncomfortable but reading all these discussions I guess I do :-/ OTOH, I try to be nice to everyone, -that way I should (theoretically) have less to worry about.

grahamburger 11y ago

That's exactly the 'interesting side effect' I was referring to. I try to compensate by 1) not interacting socially with most people at work, especially people who work for me (so there's not an in/out group) and 2) trying to make a conscious effort to have a good professional relationship with people I work with, as far as possible without it becoming social. IE I will have business discussions with everyone, but leave the personal anecdotes and social interaction at home. That leaves me being viewed as a little bit aloof and anti-social, which could be a problem except that I've always been viewed that way anyway so it comes naturally. But yeah, there are traps on both ends of that spectrum and littered through the middle and no clear cut solution.

bittercynic 11y ago

I think it is pretty safe for a man to socialize with men and women at work, but you have to recognize signals that a person doesn't want to talk to you and find a gracious way to deal with that. If an adult is unable to recognize those basic signals, what training options are available to get up-to-speed?

grahamburger 11y ago
I think that every person that I regularly interact with socially I have both offended and been offended by in some way. I suspect that that's just part of normal human interaction. But it seems like any offense from a man to a woman can be considered sexual harassment, which I would say makes those interactions dangerous. Also note that I wouldn't blame women for this issue. It's really the fault of (mostly) men who are aggressively and shamelessly harassing women and putting everyone on edge.
- GFK_of_xmaspast 11y ago
  > But it seems like any offense from a man to a woman can be considered sexual harassment Have you considered that this is not in fact the case.
bsder 11y ago
> I think it is pretty safe for a man to socialize with men and women at work, but you have to recognize signals that a person doesn't want to talk to you and find a gracious way to deal with that. Really? Recognize the signals in the single most ambiguous pursuit in human nature? Unless you're Brad Pitt, some women will find advances unwanted. Others will welcome them. One cannot differentiate that until after having made the, possibly unwanted, advance.
- bittercynic 11y ago
  Is socializing the same as making advances for you? I agree, making advances is risky, and you probably shouldn't do it at work, or at the workplace of the person you're making advances towards.