5 ms·

There is an interesting side effect to these issues that I think doesn't get discussed very often. I try to be as aware as possible of these issues in the hope

There is an interesting side effect to these issues that I think doesn't get discussed very often. I try to be as aware as possible of these issues in the hope that I can make sure that I'm not part of the problem. As such I make a concerted effort to give anyone that works for me equal opportunities for advancement, and when in doubt I try to err on the side of the person who's in a marginalized class. I also try to make a habit of publicly recognizing good work that I see from any one in the company, and again I make an extra effort to recognize the work done by those in marginalized classes. I'm also very choosy in general about who I make friends with, or who I interact with on anything other than a professional level. As a rule, I don't interact socially with women in the workplace. The primary reason is that it's more important to me to not be labelled a sexual predator / harasser than it is to have female friends. (I am married, but I acted basically the same at work when I was single.) There are just too many ambiguities in what is considered sexual harassment for me to feel comfortable putting my reputation on that line. For example, it's not at all uncommon for me to comment to a male co-worker who comes in to work dressed up more than usual 'looking sharp, man!' or something along those lines. Would that be sexual harassment if I said that to a woman? Probably not on the face of it, but what if she has just (unbeknownst to me) endured harassment from another co-worker about her looks - then I could see my comment adding to the fire. Or what if I without thinking said something that implied that her dress would make her a more valuable employee or help her get that promotion or whatever. So, I just avoid it altogether. I recognize that my position may keep me from being part of the problem but also prevents me from being a part of the solution because I won't be aware of problems or able to offer meaningful support. I'm not sure what else to do.

labster 11y ago
If you ignore all women socially at work, you're going to end up discriminating against women. People have a strong tendency to select for what they already know. If you have a hiring choice between a theoretically equal woman and an equal man, you'll probably want to select the man because you'd feel safe to interact with him socially. You won't because it's Wrong, but what about all of the little decisions you don't think about so hard? Even if you were outside of management, you'd still be marginalizing the women on your team by your actions -- making an in group and an out group. It's possible to run so far from sexual harassment you run into sexual discrimination. I don't know if there is an answer to this other than "be a nice person". Not trying to pick on parent in particular, just trying to illustrate how thorny the issues are.
- backpocket 11y ago
  So in our pursuit of equality, men are now between a rock and a hard place: treat women equally, but not too equally; treat them differently, but not too differently - or you will be discriminating. "Please discriminate: just very, very carefully and very, very skillfully."
  - bittercynic 11y ago
    In my experience (as a man) all you have to do is treat people with respect and you'll be fine. There are occasionally times when I enter a room where a woman was alone and I can see that my mere presence is making her very uncomfortable and she feels that she can't say/do anything. At those times I quickly excuse myself with a quick "Hello, goodbye" or something. This really doesn't seem like such a tricky issue if you're just respectful and conscious of the discomfort of others.
    - nogbit 11y ago
      Respect...exactly right! I've never had a problem and the respect is reciprocated for 20 years now in my career. I've never had to excuse myself either, if it's only 2 people in the room just start a damm conversation. Talking is really easier than you think.
    - drunken-serval 11y ago
      This assumes you have the social skills and awareness of your surroundings to notice when you've made someone uncomfortable. I'll often go to the break room with headphones on and make tea while I puzzle through some code I had been working on. I'm barely aware there are other people in the room.
      - FilterSweep 11y ago
        > I'll often go to the break room with headphones on and make tea while I puzzle through some code I had been working on. It's sometimes in those moments when you come across a solution you wouldn't have thought of at your desk. YMMV though.
backpocket 11y ago
This is entirely because we have moved the locus of control toward those who may potentially be harassers in an effort to remove all liability from those who may potentially be harassed. This twisted logic means we can never find a real solution, just continue to patch issues in contrived ways that in turn create other problems. This is also why we are told ludicrous things like "teach men not to rape" - eerily similar to obscenely inappropriate comments like to "teach the poor not to steal" or "teach blacks not to murder"; we have forgotten that progress requires all parties to be elevated.
cb18 11y ago
There are just too many ambiguities in what is considered sexual harassment Just as there are many ambiguities in what exactly constitutes a 'marginalized class,' which makes your intentionally giving special treatment to certain groups problematic. I recognize that my position may keep me from being part of the problem but also prevents me from being a part of the solution because I won't be aware of problems or able to offer meaningful support. I'm not sure what else to do. These are the truly negative and pernicious effects of outrage culture, and what is actually deserving of condemnation. It marginalizes thoughtful individuals such as yourself. Who feel they must constantly walk on eggshells, lest they be accosted by a twitter mob. Yes individual instances of shitty behavior obviously need to be dealt with appropriately. But painting with hugely broad brushstrokes and marginalizing all men, or all white people, or whoever, as is done in this constant stream of 'think' pieces is terrible for our society. Not to say there isn't some truth in some of these issues. But another negative effect of these panics, is that people get the message that it is better to err on the side of interpreting themselves as being a victim rather than not. So this constant media bombardment of this sort of thing actually is making whatever problem may be there worse.
nommm-nommm 11y ago
>For example, it's not at all uncommon for me to comment to a male co-worker who comes in to work dressed up more than usual 'looking sharp, man!' or something along those lines. Would that be sexual harassment if I said that to a woman? Probably not on the face of it, but what if she has just (unbeknownst to me) endured harassment from another co-worker about her looks - then I could see my comment adding to the fire. Or what if I without thinking said something that implied that her dress would make her a more valuable employee or help her get that promotion or whatever. So, I just avoid it altogether. I find the best policy is to not make any comments about other's appearance/weight. That topic is a minefield for all genders. There's exceptions to this policy - if you were a manager instructing a subordinate about appropriate dress for work for example. Or asking if there was a special occasion for them to get dressed up for but not commenting directly on their appearance.
serge2k 11y ago
I'm sure women appreciate you acting paranoid and terrified of accidentally interacting with them in the workplace.
Mz 11y ago
Please consider reading the following: http://micheleincalifornia.blogspot.com/2014/03/the-gray-zone.html http://micheleincalifornia.blogspot.com/2014/03/the-gray-zon... https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7407280 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7407280 I think men like you are a big part of the problem and a frustratingly difficult part to try to identify and combat. I have sympathy for the difficult position it puts you in, but your behavior de facto freezes women out and denies them opportunities to make critical connections that are a big part of the problem. I would rather see a world in which people were pretty meh about coworkers getting hot and heavy together and women and men could talk to each other comfortably than the situation we have now. Best.
- MollyR 11y ago
  I think your word choice is poor here. He is a human being with a reasonable position, especially if they have a family to support. I don't think its good to "identify" and "combat" people like this. In fact it seems dehumanizing when what we need is more empathy and understanding to get to root issues.
  - Mz 11y ago
    You are, no doubt, right. But there seems to be no path forward without offending someone. Simply being a woman in a man's world with an opinion seems to set off plenty of people. I do my best to be respectful, but there comes a point past which I can choose to be so respectful of the delicate sensibilities of men that I never say anything ever or I can risk what is often a shitshow no matter how carefully I word it. Hopefully, the article I linked to says it better. I am the author. It did make the front page of HN when someone other than me chose to post it here. I believe it to be one of the more even handed approaches to the problem space.
    - LyndsySimon 11y ago
      > or I can risk what is often a shitshow no matter how carefully I word it. I assure you, we feel the same way. This is a topic that I'm extremely uncomfortable speaking about, and usually use a throwaway.
random_upvoter 11y ago
You worry about "putting your reputation on the line" but if you're really behaving like this you probably already got a reputation of somebody who has a problem with women. It will hurt your career in the end. So maybe you don't talk about yourself at work, have no doubt that others talk about you.

labster 11y ago

If you ignore all women socially at work, you're going to end up discriminating against women. People have a strong tendency to select for what they already know. If you have a hiring choice between a theoretically equal woman and an equal man, you'll probably want to select the man because you'd feel safe to interact with him socially. You won't because it's Wrong, but what about all of the little decisions you don't think about so hard? Even if you were outside of management, you'd still be marginalizing the women on your team by your actions -- making an in group and an out group. It's possible to run so far from sexual harassment you run into sexual discrimination. I don't know if there is an answer to this other than "be a nice person". Not trying to pick on parent in particular, just trying to illustrate how thorny the issues are.

backpocket 11y ago
So in our pursuit of equality, men are now between a rock and a hard place: treat women equally, but not too equally; treat them differently, but not too differently - or you will be discriminating. "Please discriminate: just very, very carefully and very, very skillfully."
- bittercynic 11y ago
  In my experience (as a man) all you have to do is treat people with respect and you'll be fine. There are occasionally times when I enter a room where a woman was alone and I can see that my mere presence is making her very uncomfortable and she feels that she can't say/do anything. At those times I quickly excuse myself with a quick "Hello, goodbye" or something. This really doesn't seem like such a tricky issue if you're just respectful and conscious of the discomfort of others.
  - nogbit 11y ago
    Respect...exactly right! I've never had a problem and the respect is reciprocated for 20 years now in my career. I've never had to excuse myself either, if it's only 2 people in the room just start a damm conversation. Talking is really easier than you think.
  - drunken-serval 11y ago
    This assumes you have the social skills and awareness of your surroundings to notice when you've made someone uncomfortable. I'll often go to the break room with headphones on and make tea while I puzzle through some code I had been working on. I'm barely aware there are other people in the room.
    - FilterSweep 11y ago
      > I'll often go to the break room with headphones on and make tea while I puzzle through some code I had been working on. It's sometimes in those moments when you come across a solution you wouldn't have thought of at your desk. YMMV though.

backpocket 11y ago

This is entirely because we have moved the locus of control toward those who may potentially be harassers in an effort to remove all liability from those who may potentially be harassed. This twisted logic means we can never find a real solution, just continue to patch issues in contrived ways that in turn create other problems. This is also why we are told ludicrous things like "teach men not to rape" - eerily similar to obscenely inappropriate comments like to "teach the poor not to steal" or "teach blacks not to murder"; we have forgotten that progress requires all parties to be elevated.

cb18 11y ago

There are just too many ambiguities in what is considered sexual harassment Just as there are many ambiguities in what exactly constitutes a 'marginalized class,' which makes your intentionally giving special treatment to certain groups problematic. I recognize that my position may keep me from being part of the problem but also prevents me from being a part of the solution because I won't be aware of problems or able to offer meaningful support. I'm not sure what else to do. These are the truly negative and pernicious effects of outrage culture, and what is actually deserving of condemnation. It marginalizes thoughtful individuals such as yourself. Who feel they must constantly walk on eggshells, lest they be accosted by a twitter mob. Yes individual instances of shitty behavior obviously need to be dealt with appropriately. But painting with hugely broad brushstrokes and marginalizing all men, or all white people, or whoever, as is done in this constant stream of 'think' pieces is terrible for our society. Not to say there isn't some truth in some of these issues. But another negative effect of these panics, is that people get the message that it is better to err on the side of interpreting themselves as being a victim rather than not. So this constant media bombardment of this sort of thing actually is making whatever problem may be there worse.

nommm-nommm 11y ago

>For example, it's not at all uncommon for me to comment to a male co-worker who comes in to work dressed up more than usual 'looking sharp, man!' or something along those lines. Would that be sexual harassment if I said that to a woman? Probably not on the face of it, but what if she has just (unbeknownst to me) endured harassment from another co-worker about her looks - then I could see my comment adding to the fire. Or what if I without thinking said something that implied that her dress would make her a more valuable employee or help her get that promotion or whatever. So, I just avoid it altogether. I find the best policy is to not make any comments about other's appearance/weight. That topic is a minefield for all genders. There's exceptions to this policy - if you were a manager instructing a subordinate about appropriate dress for work for example. Or asking if there was a special occasion for them to get dressed up for but not commenting directly on their appearance.

serge2k 11y ago

I'm sure women appreciate you acting paranoid and terrified of accidentally interacting with them in the workplace.

Mz 11y ago

Please consider reading the following: http://micheleincalifornia.blogspot.com/2014/03/the-gray-zone.html http://micheleincalifornia.blogspot.com/2014/03/the-gray-zon... https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7407280 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7407280 I think men like you are a big part of the problem and a frustratingly difficult part to try to identify and combat. I have sympathy for the difficult position it puts you in, but your behavior de facto freezes women out and denies them opportunities to make critical connections that are a big part of the problem. I would rather see a world in which people were pretty meh about coworkers getting hot and heavy together and women and men could talk to each other comfortably than the situation we have now. Best.

MollyR 11y ago
I think your word choice is poor here. He is a human being with a reasonable position, especially if they have a family to support. I don't think its good to "identify" and "combat" people like this. In fact it seems dehumanizing when what we need is more empathy and understanding to get to root issues.
- Mz 11y ago
  You are, no doubt, right. But there seems to be no path forward without offending someone. Simply being a woman in a man's world with an opinion seems to set off plenty of people. I do my best to be respectful, but there comes a point past which I can choose to be so respectful of the delicate sensibilities of men that I never say anything ever or I can risk what is often a shitshow no matter how carefully I word it. Hopefully, the article I linked to says it better. I am the author. It did make the front page of HN when someone other than me chose to post it here. I believe it to be one of the more even handed approaches to the problem space.
  - LyndsySimon 11y ago
    > or I can risk what is often a shitshow no matter how carefully I word it. I assure you, we feel the same way. This is a topic that I'm extremely uncomfortable speaking about, and usually use a throwaway.

random_upvoter 11y ago

You worry about "putting your reputation on the line" but if you're really behaving like this you probably already got a reputation of somebody who has a problem with women. It will hurt your career in the end. So maybe you don't talk about yourself at work, have no doubt that others talk about you.