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I don't think the right solution is to track pages read better. That would make the scam a bit harder (because scammers would have to either manually turn pages

I don't think the right solution is to track pages read better. That would make the scam a bit harder (because scammers would have to either manually turn pages or fake the client software), but is still pretty easily defeatable. A couple of things that Amazon could do to fix this behavior: 1. Instead of putting all KU subscriptions in a big pot and then dividing the pot among all authors by page read, divide the income from each individual subscriber among the pages he/she reads (so a read from a user who reads less would effectively be worth more). That way spammers who join collectives to read each others' giant books are just taking money from each other instead of stealing from the larger pot. 2. Don't pay out revenue for pages read until 2-3 months after the fact, and if a book is determined to be spam during that time withhold all revenues. This admittedly affects legitimate authors as well, but maybe Amazon could soften the blow by contributing the spam-attributed portion of the KU revenue back to the author pot so all the legitimate authors get a nice little bonus for their patience. Note that either/both options might require renegotiating contracts with KU program authors, but if the spam problem is as bad as it sounds I can't imagine most legitimate authors objecting.

kevincox 11y ago
Exactly, if you divide the pot per-user then a scammer who opens an account can only make their own money back (minus amazon's cut) making a scam like this a non-starter. Next they can try to trick legitimate readers, which was mentioned in the article. But that can be mitigated by actually counting pages read. Because tricking a legitimate reader is click through pages of garbage is going to be a hard sell. Next you have to worry about account hijacking but that's a whole different kettle of fish.
kbenson 11y ago
> Instead of putting all KU subscriptions in a big pot and then dividing the pot among all authors by page read, divide the income from each individual subscriber among the pages he/she reads (so a read from a user who reads less would effectively be worth more). There's a few side-effects to this, some may be beneficial depending on your point of view, others not. - People who read more are paying less to each author than those who read less. I might find an author I like, and voraciously consume thousands of pages of her works in a month. My total payout to her would be the same monthly fee. Popular and/or good authors shouldn't be penalized. - What happens to the monthly fees for people that don't read anything that month? Does Amazon get to keep it? - It runs the risk of incentivizing click-bait titles and synopsis, which may cause readers to think most the content on the platform sucks, and leave. Everybody is worse off if the platform fails entirely. In the end, Amazon wants a market where good authors can get paid, so they'll come, and they want good authors because that will attract subscribers, which is how Amazon gets paid. Pairing subscribers with authors they like, and allowing an exchange of money for services as frictionless as possible is in the best interest for all the legitimate actors here, so hopefully Amazon will find a better solution soon.
- bitdivision 11y ago
  I might be missing something here but if they still track the last page read, then why would it incentivize click-bait titles and synopses? Additionally, I think your first two points mostly address the outliers on the bell curve. It seems to me that GP's solution would be at least somewhat more fair than the current system although its certainly not perfect.
  - kbenson 11y ago
    > I might be missing something here but if they still track the last page read, then why would it incentivize click-bait titles and synopses? It's much easier to make a book sound epic, insightful and/or wonderful than it is to actually write something like that. It might take a while for the user to give up, but who cares if people only get 50-100 pages into your book before quitting if you can attract multiple times more people? > Additionally, I think you're first two points mostly address the outliers on the bell curve. I have personally alternated between those extremes in the last six months. I've read multiple thousands of pages one month, and been too busy to read anything the next. I also suspect there's a population of people that will sign up and forget about it for long periods - just like gym memberships.
    - bitdivision 11y ago
      > It's much easier to make a book sound epic, insightful and/or wonderful than it is to actually write something like that. It might take a while for the user to give up, but who cares if people only get 50-100 pages into your book before quitting if you can attract multiple times more people? I don't see how that is any different with a per-user pot than the current system?
      - kbenson 11y ago
        The major difference is that it may force the current scam which seems to rely partially on getting people to download and click the last page and partially on a scammer network to do this for each other to move entirely to scamming real people to click the last page. That said, that's not a good reason in my mind, since we shouldn't be afraid of stopping abuse just because we are afraid it will shift to another area, as it's still progress. I retract that specific example (but I think the others are worth thinking about).
astrodust 11y ago
How about a manual review of any anomalously high payouts? Someone who showed up out of nowhere and starts pulling down $70K a month should at least be given a cursory investigation. Based on the description here it wouldn't take five minutes to uncover the problem.
- blowski 11y ago
  Some of the self-published stuff is so bad it's hard to tell whether it's spam or not. One person's pageturner classic could be another person's spam.
  - astrodust 11y ago
    Sure, there's an element of ambiguity here, but those books don't pull down tens of thousands of dollars in "sales" without a whole lot of marketing.
    - kbenson 11y ago
      The problem here is the assumption that one account pulls down tens of thousands of dollars. There's nothing keeping the scammers from spreading the ebooks across multiple accounts, and getting $1000 an account across 70 accounts. That's much harder to track by the method suggested due to both the sheer number or accounts and the much smaller payout per account.
      - jethro_tell 11y ago
        I think this is the crux of it. Spam is a lot harder to track than most people realize. Written spam is still a thing in email 30 years later. There's a solution to this but I assume it's a cat and mouse game. To think Amazon just doesn't care about the authors getting scammed is foolish. Without a lot of human involvement this is a very big problem space. One could accuse the program of being poorly thought out but I think that the idea that no one cares about the issue is disingenuous.

kevincox 11y ago

Exactly, if you divide the pot per-user then a scammer who opens an account can only make their own money back (minus amazon's cut) making a scam like this a non-starter. Next they can try to trick legitimate readers, which was mentioned in the article. But that can be mitigated by actually counting pages read. Because tricking a legitimate reader is click through pages of garbage is going to be a hard sell. Next you have to worry about account hijacking but that's a whole different kettle of fish.

kbenson 11y ago

> Instead of putting all KU subscriptions in a big pot and then dividing the pot among all authors by page read, divide the income from each individual subscriber among the pages he/she reads (so a read from a user who reads less would effectively be worth more). There's a few side-effects to this, some may be beneficial depending on your point of view, others not. - People who read more are paying less to each author than those who read less. I might find an author I like, and voraciously consume thousands of pages of her works in a month. My total payout to her would be the same monthly fee. Popular and/or good authors shouldn't be penalized. - What happens to the monthly fees for people that don't read anything that month? Does Amazon get to keep it? - It runs the risk of incentivizing click-bait titles and synopsis, which may cause readers to think most the content on the platform sucks, and leave. Everybody is worse off if the platform fails entirely. In the end, Amazon wants a market where good authors can get paid, so they'll come, and they want good authors because that will attract subscribers, which is how Amazon gets paid. Pairing subscribers with authors they like, and allowing an exchange of money for services as frictionless as possible is in the best interest for all the legitimate actors here, so hopefully Amazon will find a better solution soon.

bitdivision 11y ago
I might be missing something here but if they still track the last page read, then why would it incentivize click-bait titles and synopses? Additionally, I think your first two points mostly address the outliers on the bell curve. It seems to me that GP's solution would be at least somewhat more fair than the current system although its certainly not perfect.
- kbenson 11y ago
  > I might be missing something here but if they still track the last page read, then why would it incentivize click-bait titles and synopses? It's much easier to make a book sound epic, insightful and/or wonderful than it is to actually write something like that. It might take a while for the user to give up, but who cares if people only get 50-100 pages into your book before quitting if you can attract multiple times more people? > Additionally, I think you're first two points mostly address the outliers on the bell curve. I have personally alternated between those extremes in the last six months. I've read multiple thousands of pages one month, and been too busy to read anything the next. I also suspect there's a population of people that will sign up and forget about it for long periods - just like gym memberships.
  - bitdivision 11y ago
    > It's much easier to make a book sound epic, insightful and/or wonderful than it is to actually write something like that. It might take a while for the user to give up, but who cares if people only get 50-100 pages into your book before quitting if you can attract multiple times more people? I don't see how that is any different with a per-user pot than the current system?
    - kbenson 11y ago
      The major difference is that it may force the current scam which seems to rely partially on getting people to download and click the last page and partially on a scammer network to do this for each other to move entirely to scamming real people to click the last page. That said, that's not a good reason in my mind, since we shouldn't be afraid of stopping abuse just because we are afraid it will shift to another area, as it's still progress. I retract that specific example (but I think the others are worth thinking about).

astrodust 11y ago

How about a manual review of any anomalously high payouts? Someone who showed up out of nowhere and starts pulling down $70K a month should at least be given a cursory investigation. Based on the description here it wouldn't take five minutes to uncover the problem.

blowski 11y ago
Some of the self-published stuff is so bad it's hard to tell whether it's spam or not. One person's pageturner classic could be another person's spam.
- astrodust 11y ago
  Sure, there's an element of ambiguity here, but those books don't pull down tens of thousands of dollars in "sales" without a whole lot of marketing.
  - kbenson 11y ago
    The problem here is the assumption that one account pulls down tens of thousands of dollars. There's nothing keeping the scammers from spreading the ebooks across multiple accounts, and getting $1000 an account across 70 accounts. That's much harder to track by the method suggested due to both the sheer number or accounts and the much smaller payout per account.
    - jethro_tell 11y ago
      I think this is the crux of it. Spam is a lot harder to track than most people realize. Written spam is still a thing in email 30 years later. There's a solution to this but I assume it's a cat and mouse game. To think Amazon just doesn't care about the authors getting scammed is foolish. Without a lot of human involvement this is a very big problem space. One could accuse the program of being poorly thought out but I think that the idea that no one cares about the issue is disingenuous.