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I would not call it a "weird disconnect". It's just very awkward to give a flat-out "No" when asked out, even when the two people are not coworkers. When it com

by scott_s 11y ago

I would not call it a "weird disconnect". It's just very awkward to give a flat-out "No" when asked out, even when the two people are not coworkers. When it comes to asking someone out, there are three answers: Yes; Yes in principle, but I'm not available then, how about next Tuesday?; all other answers are No. She was probably frustrated that you weren't picking up on this, and probably did feel uncomfortable that she had to keep rejecting you.

stcredzero 11y ago
If sounding like "yes in principle" is the goal of your speech, then how can one reasonably expect to feel violated when that speech is taken as "yes in principle?" I like "no means no" as a principle. I wish everyone stood up boldly for the right to say "no." Do this by boldly saying no. The right to say yes but really mean no is something else entirely, and is corrosive to the right to say no.
- scott_s 11y ago
  The answer is only "yes in principle" if they counter-offer with a specific date. Otherwise it's no. These are standard social-norms, not specific to work. Asking someone out is stressful, but being asked out is also stressful. I think it's unreasonable to assume that people who are being asked out should automatically have to assume the awkward social burden of providing unequivocal rejections. Once you learn these social-norms, it's not hard to navigate with them.
  - stcredzero 11y ago
    The fact that trying to sound like "yes in principle" while not satisfying that in a detail is just weird on the face of it. If it's a social norm, it's an illogical and out of whack social norm. Grown women are just as rational and emotionally tough as men. If you claim the task of saying no is too much for them, I don't buy it. I think it's telling that in contexts where consensuality is even more immediately critical, the social norm is for direct and clear communication. awkward social burden of providing unequivocal rejections It's unreasonable for people to assume the awkward social burden of subtle second-guessing, with the consequence of being labeled as a deviant if you don't. How is that any less unpleasant and corrosive than women having to second guess how they dress, or be thought of as a sexual target? Both of these situations needlessly eschew clear communications for illogical reasons, and hold starkly severe consequences for not adhering to them -- way out of whack with the cost/benefit analysis of avoiding a little "awkwardness."
    - scott_s 11y ago
      The goal is not to sound like "yes in principle" because they usually don't say yes, they typically say "Oh, I can't, I'm busy, I have to meet a friend for dinner". I have also been gender neutral in my pronouns because I'm a guy, I've been asked out by women I did not want to go out with, and it was awkward, and it would have felt worse to just say a simple "No, I'm not interested". But she picked up on that just fine. My point is that there really isn't much second-guessing required. If they say yes, then you're good. If they counter-offer with a different time, you're still good. If they say anything else, that's no.
      - stcredzero 11y ago
        This would be viable if it were clear, codified, and widely accepted. It's not universally accepted. I've also been in situations where I properly took the information as literal, and this was the right thing to do. I associate this degree of social/mental gymnastics with Victorian England or the antebellum South, not rational people in 2016.
        zyxley 11y ago
        > This would be viable if it were clear, codified, and widely accepted. It's not universally accepted. Given the number of people directly disagreeing with you here, I think you need to reevaluate your premise.
    - rokhayakebe 11y ago
      95% (arbitrarily) of people will not give you a straight no. Even "Sorry I am not interested" which is honest can come of as impolite. I think saying "I am flattered, but I am not available" is clear and leaves room for a peaceful interaction in the future, or at least to ensure the other person does not leave hurt. When rejecting others it is very important to think of the pain it took them in the first place to approach you. If anything I can respect their courage.
  - rokhayakebe 11y ago
    I agree with you. I understand it clearly when someone does not give me an alternative day. If they say "So sorry, I am busy Thursday," I politely answer "Awesome. Let me know when you are free and I'll make time for us." This way they know IF they change their mind later they can reach out.
rokhayakebe 11y ago
Honestly everybody would win if guys and girls told the other person "I am flattered, but I am not available." It may hurt a little in the moment (because ego), but short/mid/long run you always thank them for saving you time.
- adrienne 11y ago
  Except for women, the worst case when we say "no" isn't "someone gets his feelings hurt and goes away"; it's something like this: http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/usanow/2014/04/25/connecticut-prom-invitation-slash/8147003/ http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/usanow/2014/04/25/connect... or this: http://mic.com/articles/133535/yet-another-woman-has-been-killed-for-turning-down-a-man-who-asked-her-out#.GfsEIxvxk http://mic.com/articles/133535/yet-another-woman-has-been-ki...

by scott_s 11y ago

stcredzero 11y ago

If sounding like "yes in principle" is the goal of your speech, then how can one reasonably expect to feel violated when that speech is taken as "yes in principle?" I like "no means no" as a principle. I wish everyone stood up boldly for the right to say "no." Do this by boldly saying no. The right to say yes but really mean no is something else entirely, and is corrosive to the right to say no.

scott_s 11y ago
The answer is only "yes in principle" if they counter-offer with a specific date. Otherwise it's no. These are standard social-norms, not specific to work. Asking someone out is stressful, but being asked out is also stressful. I think it's unreasonable to assume that people who are being asked out should automatically have to assume the awkward social burden of providing unequivocal rejections. Once you learn these social-norms, it's not hard to navigate with them.
- stcredzero 11y ago
  The fact that trying to sound like "yes in principle" while not satisfying that in a detail is just weird on the face of it. If it's a social norm, it's an illogical and out of whack social norm. Grown women are just as rational and emotionally tough as men. If you claim the task of saying no is too much for them, I don't buy it. I think it's telling that in contexts where consensuality is even more immediately critical, the social norm is for direct and clear communication. awkward social burden of providing unequivocal rejections It's unreasonable for people to assume the awkward social burden of subtle second-guessing, with the consequence of being labeled as a deviant if you don't. How is that any less unpleasant and corrosive than women having to second guess how they dress, or be thought of as a sexual target? Both of these situations needlessly eschew clear communications for illogical reasons, and hold starkly severe consequences for not adhering to them -- way out of whack with the cost/benefit analysis of avoiding a little "awkwardness."
  - scott_s 11y ago
    The goal is not to sound like "yes in principle" because they usually don't say yes, they typically say "Oh, I can't, I'm busy, I have to meet a friend for dinner". I have also been gender neutral in my pronouns because I'm a guy, I've been asked out by women I did not want to go out with, and it was awkward, and it would have felt worse to just say a simple "No, I'm not interested". But she picked up on that just fine. My point is that there really isn't much second-guessing required. If they say yes, then you're good. If they counter-offer with a different time, you're still good. If they say anything else, that's no.
    - stcredzero 11y ago
      This would be viable if it were clear, codified, and widely accepted. It's not universally accepted. I've also been in situations where I properly took the information as literal, and this was the right thing to do. I associate this degree of social/mental gymnastics with Victorian England or the antebellum South, not rational people in 2016.
      - zyxley 11y ago
        > This would be viable if it were clear, codified, and widely accepted. It's not universally accepted. Given the number of people directly disagreeing with you here, I think you need to reevaluate your premise.
  - rokhayakebe 11y ago
    95% (arbitrarily) of people will not give you a straight no. Even "Sorry I am not interested" which is honest can come of as impolite. I think saying "I am flattered, but I am not available" is clear and leaves room for a peaceful interaction in the future, or at least to ensure the other person does not leave hurt. When rejecting others it is very important to think of the pain it took them in the first place to approach you. If anything I can respect their courage.
- rokhayakebe 11y ago
  I agree with you. I understand it clearly when someone does not give me an alternative day. If they say "So sorry, I am busy Thursday," I politely answer "Awesome. Let me know when you are free and I'll make time for us." This way they know IF they change their mind later they can reach out.

rokhayakebe 11y ago

Honestly everybody would win if guys and girls told the other person "I am flattered, but I am not available." It may hurt a little in the moment (because ego), but short/mid/long run you always thank them for saving you time.

adrienne 11y ago
Except for women, the worst case when we say "no" isn't "someone gets his feelings hurt and goes away"; it's something like this: http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/usanow/2014/04/25/connecticut-prom-invitation-slash/8147003/ http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/usanow/2014/04/25/connect... or this: http://mic.com/articles/133535/yet-another-woman-has-been-killed-for-turning-down-a-man-who-asked-her-out#.GfsEIxvxk http://mic.com/articles/133535/yet-another-woman-has-been-ki...