6 ms·

Biology is one of the most female-friendly STEM fields out there. I've met female biologists, plenty of them. The article describes astrophysics as 90%, 95% mal

by wfo 11y ago

Biology is one of the most female-friendly STEM fields out there. I've met female biologists, plenty of them. The article describes astrophysics as 90%, 95% male at many of these universities. I think it's likely that the issues aren't quite as systemic in fields which are a little more diverse, but that doesn't mean the issue isn't a cultural, systemic one in astrophysics.

goodcanadian 11y ago
I get what you are saying; however, I have not witnessed this behaviour (perhaps, because I am male). If it was really a cultural, systemic problem in astrophysics, I feel like I would have noticed. [EDIT: I don't mean to imply that the problem is not real, only that I am surprised and disappointed] As for the diversity of the field, I believe it is getting more diverse. The gender ratio of graduate students in astronomy is apparently about 50/50. Hopefully, over the next several years the numbers in faculty positions will improve also. I have worked with a great number of highly capable women because as a technologist, I often wind up working with the graduate students rather than the principle investigators.
- cjbprime 11y ago
  Astronomy is currently going through a series of very high-profile covered-up sexual harassment cases. Have you not heard about them? http://www.nature.com/news/astronomy-roiled-again-by-sexual-harassment-allegations-1.19153 http://www.nature.com/news/astronomy-roiled-again-by-sexual-... I don't know why you think you would notice sexual harassment happening. The obvious explanation for incidents like the ones we're talking about is that abusers are good at hiding it from the people they aren't abusing!
- Declanomous 11y ago
  I realized I wrote a wall of text in response. I'm not picking on you, but I think you brought up a point that I think is really worth responding to in depth, because I felt that way in one point in time, and I've slowly realized how wrong I was. I used to believe that I would surely notice if I was in an environment that fostered harassment. Over time, I've realized that harassment is a problem, but I was just looking for the wrong things. Harassment doesn't really manifest itself in a way that can be made clear from a single objective measurement. There is a lot of research about sexism that really reveals what is not obvious to me, as a man, about how sexism affects women: When talking on the phone in a customer support role, women are more likely to be yelled at. Men tend to talk for a disproportionately large amount of a conversation. Assertive women are viewed much more negatively than assertive men by both men and women. Studies like these made me re-evaluate how harassment presents itself. I used to think that it was obvious, like wolf-whistles on the street. Harassment is more like living in a world where everyone is just a little (or a lot) bit shittier to you. It's a lot easier to ignore, because you've had the same experiences. As an example, I currently am one of three guys out of 25 people at my current company. We are a non-profit, and we have about 800k constituents, 100k of whom give in any given year. We all field a lot of calls from constituents who aren't happy for whatever reason. In the two years I've worked here, I've been yelled at once. However, the women who work here get yelled at weekly, regardless of their position. I majored in biology, and took a ton of CS in school. Bio was mostly women, and the CS program had barely a handful. As I look back, I've realized that the women in the programs really needed to present a lot more evidence for any other their proposals than men ever did. In both cases, it's really easy to dismiss criticisms with the platitude "Those things happen to everyone." They do, but they happen more to women. These little things add up, and teach women that their point of view is easily discounted, even when the evidence is incontrovertible. Reporting sexual harassment, even to someone you trust, is a huge gamble. All of their life experience points to the fact that they won't be taken seriously, especially if the person they are reporting it to is a male. They are way more likely to be seen as not being a team-player for reporting it, even if they are 100% in the right. Long story short: in order to see harassment, it's incredibly important to listen to what women are saying. It's also really important to listen to what you are saying in response, and whether you are actually listening.
  - grillvogel 11y ago
    >In both cases, it's really easy to dismiss criticisms with the platitude "Those things happen to everyone." see the majority of the comments in this post for examples.
  - dominotw 11y ago
    > wolf-whistles on the street. What do you think can be done to tackle this? One of the my buddies got punched and called a terrorist on public transit laste year. He reported it to public transit authority but they ignored it :\
    - Declanomous 11y ago
      To tackle wolf-whistles, or to tackle misconceptions about sexism? I'll direct my answer towards tackling misconceptions about sexism, because I think it solves the problem of overt-sexism, and I believe it also generalizes to issues of prejudice in general. I could write thousands of words on the topic, but for the sake of time and space I'll try to keep it brief. I think it is important to understand that almost everyone believes they are doing what is best. An individual's worldview is formed over the course of the entire life. It's important to understand that you probably won't change anyone's mind today. A few things that I think are really important to keep in mind: Listen to what the other person is saying. Ask them about their experiences. They will tell you why they believe what they believe. Respect the other person. Don't contradict their experiences. Trust them to be a person who is capable of using reason. Don't take the moral high ground. It's easier to relate to a flawed person, and nobody wants to deal with an insufferable asshole. Appeal to their intuition. People will outright reject anything that doesn't make sense. You can't throw facts that contradict an individual's life experience and expect them to accept those facts. Instead, tell a story and demonstrate how that situation represents both their position and your position. Don't use jargon. Don't use the word feminism, racism, micro-aggressions, or privilege. People have their own understanding of what those words mean. Give them ownership of their own mind. Leave them with tools to evaluate the world. Let them search for evidence for your position and for their own. edit: I just saw the new line you added. I'd say the person who punched him did a pretty terrible job of handling that. Your buddy probably thinks that the other person was the irrational one, when really both people behaved in a way that was internally rational. If it happened to my buddy, I'd say something like, "well that reaction was over the top. You definitely didn't deserve to get hit." After giving them some time to blow off steam, I'd follow up with something like "Well, I can kind of see why she was mad though. I know I appreciate [this is where you relate] compliments on my physical appearance, because I don't hear them very often, and I don't feel like I'm always valued for my looks. Women are valued on their looks first and foremost though, so you are kind of reinforcing that belief that they exist as an aesthetic object, like a painting or something." They probably don't really understand at this point, so I like to flip it around with something that they've personally complained to me about. That's probably a terrible example. It's really important to relate to people on an individual level.

by wfo 11y ago

goodcanadian 11y ago

I get what you are saying; however, I have not witnessed this behaviour (perhaps, because I am male). If it was really a cultural, systemic problem in astrophysics, I feel like I would have noticed. [EDIT: I don't mean to imply that the problem is not real, only that I am surprised and disappointed] As for the diversity of the field, I believe it is getting more diverse. The gender ratio of graduate students in astronomy is apparently about 50/50. Hopefully, over the next several years the numbers in faculty positions will improve also. I have worked with a great number of highly capable women because as a technologist, I often wind up working with the graduate students rather than the principle investigators.

cjbprime 11y ago
Astronomy is currently going through a series of very high-profile covered-up sexual harassment cases. Have you not heard about them? http://www.nature.com/news/astronomy-roiled-again-by-sexual-harassment-allegations-1.19153 http://www.nature.com/news/astronomy-roiled-again-by-sexual-... I don't know why you think you would notice sexual harassment happening. The obvious explanation for incidents like the ones we're talking about is that abusers are good at hiding it from the people they aren't abusing!
Declanomous 11y ago
I realized I wrote a wall of text in response. I'm not picking on you, but I think you brought up a point that I think is really worth responding to in depth, because I felt that way in one point in time, and I've slowly realized how wrong I was. I used to believe that I would surely notice if I was in an environment that fostered harassment. Over time, I've realized that harassment is a problem, but I was just looking for the wrong things. Harassment doesn't really manifest itself in a way that can be made clear from a single objective measurement. There is a lot of research about sexism that really reveals what is not obvious to me, as a man, about how sexism affects women: When talking on the phone in a customer support role, women are more likely to be yelled at. Men tend to talk for a disproportionately large amount of a conversation. Assertive women are viewed much more negatively than assertive men by both men and women. Studies like these made me re-evaluate how harassment presents itself. I used to think that it was obvious, like wolf-whistles on the street. Harassment is more like living in a world where everyone is just a little (or a lot) bit shittier to you. It's a lot easier to ignore, because you've had the same experiences. As an example, I currently am one of three guys out of 25 people at my current company. We are a non-profit, and we have about 800k constituents, 100k of whom give in any given year. We all field a lot of calls from constituents who aren't happy for whatever reason. In the two years I've worked here, I've been yelled at once. However, the women who work here get yelled at weekly, regardless of their position. I majored in biology, and took a ton of CS in school. Bio was mostly women, and the CS program had barely a handful. As I look back, I've realized that the women in the programs really needed to present a lot more evidence for any other their proposals than men ever did. In both cases, it's really easy to dismiss criticisms with the platitude "Those things happen to everyone." They do, but they happen more to women. These little things add up, and teach women that their point of view is easily discounted, even when the evidence is incontrovertible. Reporting sexual harassment, even to someone you trust, is a huge gamble. All of their life experience points to the fact that they won't be taken seriously, especially if the person they are reporting it to is a male. They are way more likely to be seen as not being a team-player for reporting it, even if they are 100% in the right. Long story short: in order to see harassment, it's incredibly important to listen to what women are saying. It's also really important to listen to what you are saying in response, and whether you are actually listening.
- grillvogel 11y ago
  >In both cases, it's really easy to dismiss criticisms with the platitude "Those things happen to everyone." see the majority of the comments in this post for examples.
- dominotw 11y ago
  > wolf-whistles on the street. What do you think can be done to tackle this? One of the my buddies got punched and called a terrorist on public transit laste year. He reported it to public transit authority but they ignored it :\
  - Declanomous 11y ago
    To tackle wolf-whistles, or to tackle misconceptions about sexism? I'll direct my answer towards tackling misconceptions about sexism, because I think it solves the problem of overt-sexism, and I believe it also generalizes to issues of prejudice in general. I could write thousands of words on the topic, but for the sake of time and space I'll try to keep it brief. I think it is important to understand that almost everyone believes they are doing what is best. An individual's worldview is formed over the course of the entire life. It's important to understand that you probably won't change anyone's mind today. A few things that I think are really important to keep in mind: Listen to what the other person is saying. Ask them about their experiences. They will tell you why they believe what they believe. Respect the other person. Don't contradict their experiences. Trust them to be a person who is capable of using reason. Don't take the moral high ground. It's easier to relate to a flawed person, and nobody wants to deal with an insufferable asshole. Appeal to their intuition. People will outright reject anything that doesn't make sense. You can't throw facts that contradict an individual's life experience and expect them to accept those facts. Instead, tell a story and demonstrate how that situation represents both their position and your position. Don't use jargon. Don't use the word feminism, racism, micro-aggressions, or privilege. People have their own understanding of what those words mean. Give them ownership of their own mind. Leave them with tools to evaluate the world. Let them search for evidence for your position and for their own. edit: I just saw the new line you added. I'd say the person who punched him did a pretty terrible job of handling that. Your buddy probably thinks that the other person was the irrational one, when really both people behaved in a way that was internally rational. If it happened to my buddy, I'd say something like, "well that reaction was over the top. You definitely didn't deserve to get hit." After giving them some time to blow off steam, I'd follow up with something like "Well, I can kind of see why she was mad though. I know I appreciate [this is where you relate] compliments on my physical appearance, because I don't hear them very often, and I don't feel like I'm always valued for my looks. Women are valued on their looks first and foremost though, so you are kind of reinforcing that belief that they exist as an aesthetic object, like a painting or something." They probably don't really understand at this point, so I like to flip it around with something that they've personally complained to me about. That's probably a terrible example. It's really important to relate to people on an individual level.