7 ms·

It's the sort of thinking that gets abusive people who commit crimes public criminal records (or at least records of a series of accusations) instead of slaps o

by wfo 11y ago

It's the sort of thinking that gets abusive people who commit crimes public criminal records (or at least records of a series of accusations) instead of slaps on the wrist which forever remain private so they can continue their abuse. The other alternative, calling in University-owned mediators who have no incentive to help you and every incentive to "just make it go away" will almost certainly not improve your situation -- as described in detail in the article.

woodman 11y ago
> ...people who commit crimes... While sexual harassment is terrible, it isn't a crime. There are a lot of terrible things that aren't crimes. A push to criminalize it would have the opposite effect of what the proponents desire: the definition would be severely narrowed and companies would likely have a lot less exposure to litigation.
- wfo 11y ago
  Actually, fortunately you are incorrect here. While certain kinds of sexual harassment are not criminal, groping is certainly a crime. I'm pretty sure threatening to destroy someone's career to force sex is a crime. If you succeed, it's rape which is quite a serious crime. Even if you just file a report, it's important to establish a pattern of abuse for when the person inevitably crosses the line and goes to court. This is far more serious than chicken nuggets; the fact that people are willing to liken it to something like that is very troubling and indicative of how deep the problem runs: many people don't even see it as a problem.
  - woodman 11y ago
    Describing an assault as sexual harassment is ridiculous. That is like describing a murder as impolite driving... that resulted in the flattening of a person who you happened to want dead. We are talking about different things here, and conflating them isn't going to help anybody.
    - babygoat 11y ago
      It sounds like you want a separate designation for inappropriate comments. Just fucking stop.
      - philovivero 11y ago
        Heh. I love how online discussions go from people talking past each other to... "wat." I'm struggling to think what this comment even means in the context of the broader discussion. All I know is it makes me laugh out loud.
      - woodman 11y ago
        No, I'm fine with "inappropriate comments", sexual and harassing in nature, falling under the designation of sexual harassment. But if you are advocating for making "inappropriate comments" illegal, then I'm going to have to disagree. Imagine that a man says to a woman "No pressure, but if you're up for it, I'd like to put my popsicle in your purse." That is certainly sexual harassment, and in a workplace a firing would be a likely and not unreasonable resolution. Calling for armed agents of the state to drag the man off to jail (or use the threat of violence to compel anything) is an overreaction. That is why an advocacy for making sexual harassment a criminal offense works against the proponent's interests. Sexual harassment would be redefined much more narrowly, because you can't lock people up just because they're dirty loudmouths.
    - wfo 11y ago
      It's okay for words to have wide and general meaning. Assault can mean flicking someone with your middle finger. It can mean saying something threatening. Sexual assault is a kind of assault. Barfights and brutally beating someone all count. Similarly with sexual harassment. It doesn't mean exactly what you have in your head at this particular moment and nothing else no matter what anyone else says. Look it up if you care to and you'll find its definition is quite broad, especially the way it's used in general conversation. Nobody is suggesting locking people up in jail for saying bad words -- it's an absurd strawman, though it's quite an effective way to derail the conversation and avoid having a real discussion. The article is about the climate of abuse and sexual harassment of women in astrophysics departments. Groping, specific comments, threats, general comments. Everything from flirtation to repeated unwanted advances to actual assault. That is what we are discussing, so when someone says women should go to the police to report the crimes described in the article you need to assume they are talking about the crimes described in the article.
learc83 11y ago
Sexual harassment in the US is usually a civil matter. You don't call the police because it's not a crime in and of itself, so they can't do anything about it. Sexual harassment can include crimes like sexual assault and stalking, so in those cases you should definitely call the police.

by wfo 11y ago

woodman 11y ago

> ...people who commit crimes... While sexual harassment is terrible, it isn't a crime. There are a lot of terrible things that aren't crimes. A push to criminalize it would have the opposite effect of what the proponents desire: the definition would be severely narrowed and companies would likely have a lot less exposure to litigation.

wfo 11y ago
Actually, fortunately you are incorrect here. While certain kinds of sexual harassment are not criminal, groping is certainly a crime. I'm pretty sure threatening to destroy someone's career to force sex is a crime. If you succeed, it's rape which is quite a serious crime. Even if you just file a report, it's important to establish a pattern of abuse for when the person inevitably crosses the line and goes to court. This is far more serious than chicken nuggets; the fact that people are willing to liken it to something like that is very troubling and indicative of how deep the problem runs: many people don't even see it as a problem.
- woodman 11y ago
  Describing an assault as sexual harassment is ridiculous. That is like describing a murder as impolite driving... that resulted in the flattening of a person who you happened to want dead. We are talking about different things here, and conflating them isn't going to help anybody.
  - babygoat 11y ago
    It sounds like you want a separate designation for inappropriate comments. Just fucking stop.
    - philovivero 11y ago
      Heh. I love how online discussions go from people talking past each other to... "wat." I'm struggling to think what this comment even means in the context of the broader discussion. All I know is it makes me laugh out loud.
    - woodman 11y ago
      No, I'm fine with "inappropriate comments", sexual and harassing in nature, falling under the designation of sexual harassment. But if you are advocating for making "inappropriate comments" illegal, then I'm going to have to disagree. Imagine that a man says to a woman "No pressure, but if you're up for it, I'd like to put my popsicle in your purse." That is certainly sexual harassment, and in a workplace a firing would be a likely and not unreasonable resolution. Calling for armed agents of the state to drag the man off to jail (or use the threat of violence to compel anything) is an overreaction. That is why an advocacy for making sexual harassment a criminal offense works against the proponent's interests. Sexual harassment would be redefined much more narrowly, because you can't lock people up just because they're dirty loudmouths.
  - wfo 11y ago
    It's okay for words to have wide and general meaning. Assault can mean flicking someone with your middle finger. It can mean saying something threatening. Sexual assault is a kind of assault. Barfights and brutally beating someone all count. Similarly with sexual harassment. It doesn't mean exactly what you have in your head at this particular moment and nothing else no matter what anyone else says. Look it up if you care to and you'll find its definition is quite broad, especially the way it's used in general conversation. Nobody is suggesting locking people up in jail for saying bad words -- it's an absurd strawman, though it's quite an effective way to derail the conversation and avoid having a real discussion. The article is about the climate of abuse and sexual harassment of women in astrophysics departments. Groping, specific comments, threats, general comments. Everything from flirtation to repeated unwanted advances to actual assault. That is what we are discussing, so when someone says women should go to the police to report the crimes described in the article you need to assume they are talking about the crimes described in the article.

learc83 11y ago

Sexual harassment in the US is usually a civil matter. You don't call the police because it's not a crime in and of itself, so they can't do anything about it. Sexual harassment can include crimes like sexual assault and stalking, so in those cases you should definitely call the police.