4 ms·

These harassment cases are so mysterious to me. What kind of men think this sort of behavior is ok? I mean, I would like to help somehow, but I don't know anyon

These harassment cases are so mysterious to me. What kind of men think this sort of behavior is ok? I mean, I would like to help somehow, but I don't know anyone like that.

makomk 10y ago
The kind of men that have gotten away with it for years and even then kept their jobs (unlike the women they targetted)?
- mooseburger 10y ago
  Snark aside, I just wonder why I don't know any men like that in my personal life. The problem seems quite widespread after all.
  - pavel_lishin 10y ago
    Is it possible that you do know them, but don't know who they are? After all, if you're a guy, you'll never be the target of harassment - and if they do most of their harassing one-on-one, you may ever witness it, either.
    - kefka 10y ago
      I'm a guy and have been subject to sexual harassment. Now, I'm also bisexual, and I get that people want to be forward. It's called a mating signal for a reason, and that area is fraught with misunderstandings on both sides. Well, I went in to a bar with my wife and a guy friend (of both of us). He's gay. We tried a relationship with him prior, but distance/timing meant it wouldnt. So, we were up visiting and going to an event, and he was the one showing us around town. Sooo, we walk in the bar, and it's a gay bar. No biggie. And then my friend starts showing me off like I'm his.... It took me a few moments to understand what was going on. And then I had upwards of 3 drinks offered in quick succession. One guy put his arms around my shoulders, while another grabbed my ass. It was a gay bar tending for what's called "Bears" (I'm also 6'5")... but there was some sort of soft-core underwear porn of skinny guys on huge monitors. It was probably one of my worse experiences. And if anything, it was indicative of what women more routinely go through.
      - pavel_lishin 10y ago
        Is it possible that that's typical and accepted behavior at that bar? If it's a gay bar, frequently attended by bears, with literal pornography playing on the walls, I would expect the social interaction there to be different from my neighborhood bar - which is a friendly place where my wife and I bring our kid on Saturday and Sunday afternoons. It sounds to me like your friend was being an asshole by a) not informing you of what sort of place you were going to, and b) by strongly signaling to the other folks there that you did know what type of place it was, and were a willing participant. I'm not saying you weren't harassed, by the way, and I'm sorry you were being treated shittily. But it might be like getting splashed in the first three rows of a Sea World show - if you don't know it's coming, it's shitty, but some people go specifically for that experience.
        kefka 10y ago
        Of course. The 3 of us were intending to get a drink or two at a bar in the course of the evening. I also occasionally go to a GLBT bar locally, so it's not out of the ordinary to go to one up there. He also told us that it was a gay bar, and we were initially OK with it. Also to note, that I and my wife are bisexual and polyamorous (although with each other currently). What did floor me was the signalling to other patrons that I was his in some capacity. Honestly I didn't have a clue what to really expect, as its very even keel at the local GLBT bar (mating signals are up front, simple no means no - probably due to being in a liberal college town). And no, someone showing interest in me, be they male or female is cool :) Talking dirty? That's fine, until/if I say no more. I understand that and am flattered. Assaulting me... not cool. Liberal with words, and conservative with actions is usually how I handle mating signs.
  - CaptSpify 10y ago
    I think you'd be surprised. Guys don't really brag anymore about their sexual conquests to friends (at lease, IME). But given the chance, guys who seem totally cool, and non-sexist, will change at the drop of a hat.
  - robertcope 10y ago
    You're just amazing, that's why! So amazing! Or maybe they hide it well. Or you're just lucky. Or you're just clueless.
  - blktiger 10y ago
    Maybe it's not actually that widespread? I mean, you always hear about the negative things and never about the positive things. That just the nature of life, the positive things are expected so they don't get mentioned.
  - DelaneyM 10y ago
    One asshole will harass 3-5 women over a career. Women make up ~15% of the workforce. Half of women are harassed. To get to those figures, only ~2% of men need to be assholes. This is why it's so important for the few men who see it happen to never let it go or brush it under the rug.
  - sageabilly 10y ago
    You might, they just aren't doing it to you or around you.
  - apecat 10y ago
    I'm male but I have the benefit of being surrounded people of various genders who talk openly about stuff like this. I can only conclude that a great deal of everyday sexism and sexual abuse can be near invisible to men. Some things can be hard to believe, because, being indentified as male, one tends to see the civil sides of most men. My advice is to generally be more observant of people in social situations, like parties, lunch hours etc. Especially in corners, corridors etc where they may assume not to be overheard. Sometimes, venues, clubs and flats have their own geography of fear where some women feel a need to actively measure up space in between themselves and other people. If you have friends who may be subject to this, try asking. At the right occasion. Especially a SO may be a good place to start if you want to hear general experiences. It can be as simple as "common sense knowledge" of whom you don't want to be stuck with smoking a cigarette on a balcony at a mutual friend's house party or family get-together.
  - alphonsegaston 10y ago
    I think the problem is often that we do, we're just not cognizant of it. A lot of sexism is so normalized that the edges of more destructive behavior (jokes and the like) never signal to other men that someone is abusive or demeaning to women. I've had to learn be conscious my self of not indulging casual manifestations of these attitudes, in the same way that "casual" racism is no longer socially permissible.
    - stcredzero 10y ago
      "Casual" racism and other forms of regressive bigotry are still quite permissible. In the Bay Area, there are people who think it's okay to ascribe an inherent inferiority to someone stemming from age, race, cultural background, religion, or even to what hat they wear. This is done both in the name of fighting political correctness and in the name of "social justice." It's even considered the height of sophistication of many here to jump to conclusions about your politics and morality based on subcultural markers. I find this shockingly anti-intellectual and the whole atmosphere disingenuously hateful on both sides.
  - adrienne 10y ago
    You almost certainly do know men like that in your personal life. They're just not creeping on you. Abusers and harassers are typically VERY charming to folks they're not abusing, which is why women tend not to speak up - because we know from plenty of bitter personal and secondhand experience that the response is going to be, "But he's such a great guy! You must have just misunderstood what was happening."
kitd 10y ago
> What kind of men think this sort of behavior is ok? The kind who think that the real world is just an extension of the school playground.
- JoeAltmaier 10y ago
  Interesting point. And why isn't it? Why is the 'real world' run according to some narrow set of safe-and-happy rules that insecure people make up? Just being 'devil's advocate' here. Sales people know, you get what you negotiate, not what you deserve. Anything else is a fantasy. Extend that to every facet of the working world, and you have the 'school playground' all over again.
  - kitd 10y ago
    One would hope that when you have left the school playground and entered the "real world", you have developed enough sense of empathy and social skills to understand the long-term benefit of treating people with respect, ie how you would want to be treated yourself. We do spend much time and effort drilling this into infants after all. Those who don't, ie who find it ok to use/abuse others (or can't stop themselves) for personal profit/pleasure, I would term social freeloaders. It's sad that this seems to extend to middle age in some people. And that grown-up institutions need processes to deal with problems that should have been sorted out in kindergarten.
    - JoeAltmaier 10y ago
      ...and that, I would say, is the real world. We have to deal with it. Short of rounding up and executing all the sociopaths that never learned empathy.
- s_kilk 10y ago
  I put it a different way: Everyone else is just furniture in their world.
tomp 10y ago
Many people take advantage of others when they think they can get away with it. Not limited to workplace or men.

These harassment cases are so mysterious to me. What kind of men think this sort of behavior is ok? I mean, I would like to help somehow, but I don't know anyone like that.

makomk 10y ago

The kind of men that have gotten away with it for years and even then kept their jobs (unlike the women they targetted)?

mooseburger 10y ago
Snark aside, I just wonder why I don't know any men like that in my personal life. The problem seems quite widespread after all.
- pavel_lishin 10y ago
  Is it possible that you do know them, but don't know who they are? After all, if you're a guy, you'll never be the target of harassment - and if they do most of their harassing one-on-one, you may ever witness it, either.
  - kefka 10y ago
    I'm a guy and have been subject to sexual harassment. Now, I'm also bisexual, and I get that people want to be forward. It's called a mating signal for a reason, and that area is fraught with misunderstandings on both sides. Well, I went in to a bar with my wife and a guy friend (of both of us). He's gay. We tried a relationship with him prior, but distance/timing meant it wouldnt. So, we were up visiting and going to an event, and he was the one showing us around town. Sooo, we walk in the bar, and it's a gay bar. No biggie. And then my friend starts showing me off like I'm his.... It took me a few moments to understand what was going on. And then I had upwards of 3 drinks offered in quick succession. One guy put his arms around my shoulders, while another grabbed my ass. It was a gay bar tending for what's called "Bears" (I'm also 6'5")... but there was some sort of soft-core underwear porn of skinny guys on huge monitors. It was probably one of my worse experiences. And if anything, it was indicative of what women more routinely go through.
    - pavel_lishin 10y ago
      Is it possible that that's typical and accepted behavior at that bar? If it's a gay bar, frequently attended by bears, with literal pornography playing on the walls, I would expect the social interaction there to be different from my neighborhood bar - which is a friendly place where my wife and I bring our kid on Saturday and Sunday afternoons. It sounds to me like your friend was being an asshole by a) not informing you of what sort of place you were going to, and b) by strongly signaling to the other folks there that you did know what type of place it was, and were a willing participant. I'm not saying you weren't harassed, by the way, and I'm sorry you were being treated shittily. But it might be like getting splashed in the first three rows of a Sea World show - if you don't know it's coming, it's shitty, but some people go specifically for that experience.
      - kefka 10y ago
        Of course. The 3 of us were intending to get a drink or two at a bar in the course of the evening. I also occasionally go to a GLBT bar locally, so it's not out of the ordinary to go to one up there. He also told us that it was a gay bar, and we were initially OK with it. Also to note, that I and my wife are bisexual and polyamorous (although with each other currently). What did floor me was the signalling to other patrons that I was his in some capacity. Honestly I didn't have a clue what to really expect, as its very even keel at the local GLBT bar (mating signals are up front, simple no means no - probably due to being in a liberal college town). And no, someone showing interest in me, be they male or female is cool :) Talking dirty? That's fine, until/if I say no more. I understand that and am flattered. Assaulting me... not cool. Liberal with words, and conservative with actions is usually how I handle mating signs.
- CaptSpify 10y ago
  I think you'd be surprised. Guys don't really brag anymore about their sexual conquests to friends (at lease, IME). But given the chance, guys who seem totally cool, and non-sexist, will change at the drop of a hat.
- robertcope 10y ago
  You're just amazing, that's why! So amazing! Or maybe they hide it well. Or you're just lucky. Or you're just clueless.
- blktiger 10y ago
  Maybe it's not actually that widespread? I mean, you always hear about the negative things and never about the positive things. That just the nature of life, the positive things are expected so they don't get mentioned.
- DelaneyM 10y ago
  One asshole will harass 3-5 women over a career. Women make up ~15% of the workforce. Half of women are harassed. To get to those figures, only ~2% of men need to be assholes. This is why it's so important for the few men who see it happen to never let it go or brush it under the rug.
- sageabilly 10y ago
  You might, they just aren't doing it to you or around you.
- apecat 10y ago
  I'm male but I have the benefit of being surrounded people of various genders who talk openly about stuff like this. I can only conclude that a great deal of everyday sexism and sexual abuse can be near invisible to men. Some things can be hard to believe, because, being indentified as male, one tends to see the civil sides of most men. My advice is to generally be more observant of people in social situations, like parties, lunch hours etc. Especially in corners, corridors etc where they may assume not to be overheard. Sometimes, venues, clubs and flats have their own geography of fear where some women feel a need to actively measure up space in between themselves and other people. If you have friends who may be subject to this, try asking. At the right occasion. Especially a SO may be a good place to start if you want to hear general experiences. It can be as simple as "common sense knowledge" of whom you don't want to be stuck with smoking a cigarette on a balcony at a mutual friend's house party or family get-together.
- alphonsegaston 10y ago
  I think the problem is often that we do, we're just not cognizant of it. A lot of sexism is so normalized that the edges of more destructive behavior (jokes and the like) never signal to other men that someone is abusive or demeaning to women. I've had to learn be conscious my self of not indulging casual manifestations of these attitudes, in the same way that "casual" racism is no longer socially permissible.
  - stcredzero 10y ago
    "Casual" racism and other forms of regressive bigotry are still quite permissible. In the Bay Area, there are people who think it's okay to ascribe an inherent inferiority to someone stemming from age, race, cultural background, religion, or even to what hat they wear. This is done both in the name of fighting political correctness and in the name of "social justice." It's even considered the height of sophistication of many here to jump to conclusions about your politics and morality based on subcultural markers. I find this shockingly anti-intellectual and the whole atmosphere disingenuously hateful on both sides.
- adrienne 10y ago
  You almost certainly do know men like that in your personal life. They're just not creeping on you. Abusers and harassers are typically VERY charming to folks they're not abusing, which is why women tend not to speak up - because we know from plenty of bitter personal and secondhand experience that the response is going to be, "But he's such a great guy! You must have just misunderstood what was happening."

kitd 10y ago

> What kind of men think this sort of behavior is ok? The kind who think that the real world is just an extension of the school playground.

JoeAltmaier 10y ago
Interesting point. And why isn't it? Why is the 'real world' run according to some narrow set of safe-and-happy rules that insecure people make up? Just being 'devil's advocate' here. Sales people know, you get what you negotiate, not what you deserve. Anything else is a fantasy. Extend that to every facet of the working world, and you have the 'school playground' all over again.
- kitd 10y ago
  One would hope that when you have left the school playground and entered the "real world", you have developed enough sense of empathy and social skills to understand the long-term benefit of treating people with respect, ie how you would want to be treated yourself. We do spend much time and effort drilling this into infants after all. Those who don't, ie who find it ok to use/abuse others (or can't stop themselves) for personal profit/pleasure, I would term social freeloaders. It's sad that this seems to extend to middle age in some people. And that grown-up institutions need processes to deal with problems that should have been sorted out in kindergarten.
  - JoeAltmaier 10y ago
    ...and that, I would say, is the real world. We have to deal with it. Short of rounding up and executing all the sociopaths that never learned empathy.
s_kilk 10y ago
I put it a different way: Everyone else is just furniture in their world.

tomp 10y ago

Many people take advantage of others when they think they can get away with it. Not limited to workplace or men.