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Yes. People exist who may seem like really great bosses and nice people but are also aggressive and entitled with their female coworkers. It is important not

Yes. People exist who may seem like really great bosses and nice people but are also aggressive and entitled with their female coworkers. It is important not to think of sexual harassment as only the skeevy creep who purposely takes advantage of women he has power over (although these people definitely exist too). Women have a right to work without being sexualized at all. Many times it is well meaning, otherwise good people who over step professional boundaries. They don't make an advance expecting to make the woman feel uncomfortable, but that doesn't make it ok either!

masklinn 10y ago
> are also aggressive and entitled with their female coworkers. and more generally any one deemed of inferior status and/or easy to prey on (women commonly being slotted in these categories either way), the number of people who will seem perfectly nice around their colleagues but will abuse staff (e.g. serving or cleaning agents, or secretaries) at the drop of a hat is astounding and disheartening.
ElComradio 10y ago
Yet something like 30% of office workers have had office romances. Are you going to tell all of those people they should not have flirted?
- vkou 10y ago
  Depending on the circumstances, asking someone out for a coffee is one thing. Asking them five times is almost certainly harassment.
  - semi-extrinsic 10y ago
    > Asking them five times is almost certainly harassment. Yet this behavior is romanticised is popular culture, and has been from the dawn of time up to and including the present: Oddyseus and Helen of Troy, Shakespeare's "The taming of the shrew", tons of Fred Astaire movies, as well as modern movies like "Ghost", "Life is beautiful", "Chasing Amy", TV shows like "Sex and the city"... I could go on. Lucikly I don't need to, since TVtropes has a site dedicated to this character (the "dogged nice guy"). And note that many of these are targeted at, and very popular with, women (who are usually at the receiving end of the initially-unwarranted attention). Apparently this behaviour can walk a thin line between illegal and very very romantic.
    - drunken-serval 10y ago
      Thank you for not linking to TV Tropes. I've lost a great many hours to that site. :)
      - semi-extrinsic 10y ago
        Yes, it was a deliberate non-link ;) (Oblig. http://xkcd.com/609 http://xkcd.com/609 )
    - ElComradio 10y ago
      It goes both ways. Numerous female pop stars, and in entertainment in general, angling and fishing to steal away the guy from his relationship because she KNOWS they are meant to be together... She doesn't hear "No thanks" and go away.
    - GFK_of_xmaspast 10y ago
      As I recall it, Odysseus was just one of many suitors of Helen and in fact had to be strong-armed into joining the Greek invasion. Might you perhaps be thinking of Penelope? (Also "The Taming of the Shrew" is firmly in the "oh fuck no" category of 21st century society)
  - saalweachter 10y ago
    Eh, I think restraint beyond "don't ask someone out five times, like a creep" is called for. I don't know of you've ever had anything ... distinctive about your appearance -- really thick glasses, unusually tall or short, uncommon facial hair style, hypnotic voice -- but attention, even non-creepy compliments ("your beard is awesome, can I touch it?") get really draining after awhile. Each individual's interest isn't a problem, it's the never-ending trickle that just wears away at you. It's not just that someone might have to deal with an overwhelming amount of unwanted interest from a single person, but that the aggregated polite inquiries from dozens or hundreds of interested coworkers and colleagues could add up to something overwhelming. It's like littering. So while being in a relationship with a co-worker may be fine, starting a relationship with a co-worker is tricky. It's like why you shouldn't hit on wait staff or flight attendants: they are there because it is there job. Your co-workers come into work every day for the same reason.
- sp332 10y ago
  They have a right to, but they can waive the right voluntarily.
- Steuard 10y ago
  If they're flirting with someone who they can fire, or hit with a damaging performance review? (Or an unjustly flattering one, for that matter.) Absolutely I'd tell them to knock it off. The possibility of things sometimes going right in that sort of situation isn't worth the cost.
  - ElComradio 10y ago
    If this was your friends who worked out, would you feel happy for them or scold them for setting a bad example for everyone else?
    - Steuard 10y ago
      I agree that once it has worked out for folks, it's hard to say, "You shouldn't have done that." But aren't there still costs? Everyone else in the company now gets to wonder whether the lower-ranking person's raises and promotions are due to merit or just because they're in a relationship with the boss. Beyond that, the bigger issue to my eye is that it doesn't always work out. If your boss flirts with you and you aren't interested, that puts you in an awkward position. What if saying no makes them upset with you, or just negatively colors their perception of your work in the future? (Human beings being what we are, it's hard for a negative feeling about someone in one context to be entirely compartmentalized away from our judgement about them in another.) Also, whether it works out or not: If romantic attachments between supervisors and subordinates are an accepted part of the culture of this workplace, what are the odds that the boss's attraction to you factored into your hire? Are your colleagues aware that the boss is attracted to you? Does that undermine their confidence that you got your position based on talent? Does it undermine your confidence that you got the position for the right reasons? (Might the boss think that you owe them some sort of sexual payoff for the job? There's a comforting thought as you try to do your job.) I'm not saying that any of those suspicions or worries are justified in most cases! I'm sure that most people do a decent job of separating their work responsibilities and their personal lives, even in these sorts of circumstances. But a culture that accepts supervisor-employee relationships invites this class of concerns in a way that a culture that prohibits them would not. (And maybe my thoughts here really are influenced by thinking about this in a grad student context: Ph.D. advisors have a truly astounding amount of power over their students' futures.)
- dwaltrip 10y ago
  Mature adults stop flirting when it is clear the other party is not interested.
- poof131 10y ago
  Office romances are fine. Even in the military, relationships between coworkers are accepted. It’s part of life. What’s not accepted is hitting on or dating your subordinates. One, it’s inappropriate since the subordinate may feel forced to comply with the advances for the sake of his or her career. And two, even when it works out and isn’t harassment, team dynamics are about to go into the toilet. Who gets the next promotion? Who gets the next good deal assignment? When the boss is dating one of the team members, any decision will be suspect. The whole thing is entirely unprofessional. An office romance between consenting coworkers is different from harassing/dating people you have power over.
  - ElComradio 10y ago
    We are in a bad way when one's subjective "feelings" determine the order of the day. There is a POSSIBILITY that one might FEEL they owe something (regardless of the reality)... So therefore, we need to guard against what may very well be an outlier case by restricting what the majority of people who do not have these feelings can do.

masklinn 10y ago

> are also aggressive and entitled with their female coworkers. and more generally any one deemed of inferior status and/or easy to prey on (women commonly being slotted in these categories either way), the number of people who will seem perfectly nice around their colleagues but will abuse staff (e.g. serving or cleaning agents, or secretaries) at the drop of a hat is astounding and disheartening.

ElComradio 10y ago

Yet something like 30% of office workers have had office romances. Are you going to tell all of those people they should not have flirted?

vkou 10y ago
Depending on the circumstances, asking someone out for a coffee is one thing. Asking them five times is almost certainly harassment.
- semi-extrinsic 10y ago
  > Asking them five times is almost certainly harassment. Yet this behavior is romanticised is popular culture, and has been from the dawn of time up to and including the present: Oddyseus and Helen of Troy, Shakespeare's "The taming of the shrew", tons of Fred Astaire movies, as well as modern movies like "Ghost", "Life is beautiful", "Chasing Amy", TV shows like "Sex and the city"... I could go on. Lucikly I don't need to, since TVtropes has a site dedicated to this character (the "dogged nice guy"). And note that many of these are targeted at, and very popular with, women (who are usually at the receiving end of the initially-unwarranted attention). Apparently this behaviour can walk a thin line between illegal and very very romantic.
  - drunken-serval 10y ago
    Thank you for not linking to TV Tropes. I've lost a great many hours to that site. :)
    - semi-extrinsic 10y ago
      Yes, it was a deliberate non-link ;) (Oblig. http://xkcd.com/609 http://xkcd.com/609 )
  - ElComradio 10y ago
    It goes both ways. Numerous female pop stars, and in entertainment in general, angling and fishing to steal away the guy from his relationship because she KNOWS they are meant to be together... She doesn't hear "No thanks" and go away.
  - GFK_of_xmaspast 10y ago
    As I recall it, Odysseus was just one of many suitors of Helen and in fact had to be strong-armed into joining the Greek invasion. Might you perhaps be thinking of Penelope? (Also "The Taming of the Shrew" is firmly in the "oh fuck no" category of 21st century society)
- saalweachter 10y ago
  Eh, I think restraint beyond "don't ask someone out five times, like a creep" is called for. I don't know of you've ever had anything ... distinctive about your appearance -- really thick glasses, unusually tall or short, uncommon facial hair style, hypnotic voice -- but attention, even non-creepy compliments ("your beard is awesome, can I touch it?") get really draining after awhile. Each individual's interest isn't a problem, it's the never-ending trickle that just wears away at you. It's not just that someone might have to deal with an overwhelming amount of unwanted interest from a single person, but that the aggregated polite inquiries from dozens or hundreds of interested coworkers and colleagues could add up to something overwhelming. It's like littering. So while being in a relationship with a co-worker may be fine, starting a relationship with a co-worker is tricky. It's like why you shouldn't hit on wait staff or flight attendants: they are there because it is there job. Your co-workers come into work every day for the same reason.
sp332 10y ago
They have a right to, but they can waive the right voluntarily.
Steuard 10y ago
If they're flirting with someone who they can fire, or hit with a damaging performance review? (Or an unjustly flattering one, for that matter.) Absolutely I'd tell them to knock it off. The possibility of things sometimes going right in that sort of situation isn't worth the cost.
- ElComradio 10y ago
  If this was your friends who worked out, would you feel happy for them or scold them for setting a bad example for everyone else?
  - Steuard 10y ago
    I agree that once it has worked out for folks, it's hard to say, "You shouldn't have done that." But aren't there still costs? Everyone else in the company now gets to wonder whether the lower-ranking person's raises and promotions are due to merit or just because they're in a relationship with the boss. Beyond that, the bigger issue to my eye is that it doesn't always work out. If your boss flirts with you and you aren't interested, that puts you in an awkward position. What if saying no makes them upset with you, or just negatively colors their perception of your work in the future? (Human beings being what we are, it's hard for a negative feeling about someone in one context to be entirely compartmentalized away from our judgement about them in another.) Also, whether it works out or not: If romantic attachments between supervisors and subordinates are an accepted part of the culture of this workplace, what are the odds that the boss's attraction to you factored into your hire? Are your colleagues aware that the boss is attracted to you? Does that undermine their confidence that you got your position based on talent? Does it undermine your confidence that you got the position for the right reasons? (Might the boss think that you owe them some sort of sexual payoff for the job? There's a comforting thought as you try to do your job.) I'm not saying that any of those suspicions or worries are justified in most cases! I'm sure that most people do a decent job of separating their work responsibilities and their personal lives, even in these sorts of circumstances. But a culture that accepts supervisor-employee relationships invites this class of concerns in a way that a culture that prohibits them would not. (And maybe my thoughts here really are influenced by thinking about this in a grad student context: Ph.D. advisors have a truly astounding amount of power over their students' futures.)
dwaltrip 10y ago
Mature adults stop flirting when it is clear the other party is not interested.
poof131 10y ago
Office romances are fine. Even in the military, relationships between coworkers are accepted. It’s part of life. What’s not accepted is hitting on or dating your subordinates. One, it’s inappropriate since the subordinate may feel forced to comply with the advances for the sake of his or her career. And two, even when it works out and isn’t harassment, team dynamics are about to go into the toilet. Who gets the next promotion? Who gets the next good deal assignment? When the boss is dating one of the team members, any decision will be suspect. The whole thing is entirely unprofessional. An office romance between consenting coworkers is different from harassing/dating people you have power over.
- ElComradio 10y ago
  We are in a bad way when one's subjective "feelings" determine the order of the day. There is a POSSIBILITY that one might FEEL they owe something (regardless of the reality)... So therefore, we need to guard against what may very well be an outlier case by restricting what the majority of people who do not have these feelings can do.