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It sounds terrible. And yet working in he unrelated field of IT I haven't seen it. I have seen a bunch of assholes in high positions though and have to put up

• deleted 11y ago
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• dagw 11y ago
  Or are there really nice bosses who are just complete assholes to women? My friend's ex-boss was like that. All the guys at the company thought he was the best boss ever and all the women hated him with a passion.
  • clevernickname 11y ago
    The opposite absolutely exists. I've had female bosses, professors, etc. that all the women loved and admired, while all the men agreed she was out to get them.
    • philovivero 11y ago
      Are you certain of that? In my experience, women superficially will say glowing and great things about other women, but when the honesty comes out, there's vitriolic hatred. Women have a far more sophisticated sense of situation-appropriate speech. Men think of it as "two-faced," but it's just Machiavellian maneuvering. When taken at face value, it's easy to mistake women as having great respect and love for one-another.
      • clevernickname 11y ago
        I get where you're coming from, but I'm pretty sure in most of the cases I'm thinking about. Say, with women I was close enough to that we could have a great time privately talking shit about other professors, yet when it came to the "man hating" one almost all genuinely seemed to like or at least respect her. EDIT: I was just thinking about how this professor would grade men worse than women for essentially the same answers and realized that you could make a pretty compelling case for early education (which is predominately staffed by women) being biased against boys, and cite the greater number of women that go on to enter higher education as a potential consequence of it. I wonder why nobody raises a stink about that.
    • collyw 11y ago
      The female boss in one place I worked seem to hate all the women who worked under her, but generally loved the guys.
      • bsder 11y ago
        This seems to be my general experience. Female boss/female employee seems to be the most volatile combination. To be fair, from my viewpoint, most of them seemed to be actually acting fairly. If a guy had done something similar, any one of them would have ripped him apart, too. I don't have any explanation.
    • MollyR 11y ago
      yea it really depends on the person. I've had female bosses that went out of their way to harass men because they knew they could get away with it (HR didn't believe the men), and I've also had female bosses who were threatened by younger women, and harassed the heck out me.
• mhurron 11y ago
  Yes there are people that act just fine to people they believe are capable or otherwise worthy who are total assholes to those they deem unworthy of their time/effort/care. Yes sexism really exists and that line of worthiness/unworthiness may be drawn at your genitals.
  • Retric 11y ago
    In many cases this is not pure sexism. Often people have a few 'exceptions' for some highly competent people. In many cases it's closer to hazing where people can be incredibly nasty to people they think are acceptable targets. And then after a transition treat as part of their inner circle. Not that I think either are acceptable, but it's important to try and understand behaviors you want to change.
    • mhurron 11y ago
      I did say 'may', and I said that for a reason.
• ceejayoz 11y ago
  > And yet working in he unrelated field of IT I haven't seen it. The article notes various reasons for this. It gets covered up, abusers are generally cautious about where/when they do it, some people don't perceive it as abuse, etc. Take Bill Cosby as an example. Decades of consistent reports of behavior (to the point where 30 Rock was making pointed jokes about it years ago), dozens of victims, legal settlements, and he's still got plenty of people who won't believe it happened defending him.
  • matt_wulfeck 11y ago
    > Bill Cosby as an example. Rich and wealthy people can cover up a lot. See Michael Jackson. It doesn't mean that child abuse is rampant among musicians. I also work in IT and I share the GP question. If it's as rampant as some articles and people make it out to be then the harassers are getting very good at covering it up.
    • eropple 11y ago
      They might be good at covering it up. Or you're not actively looking, and so it's not in your sphere of awareness. Or the coworkers to whom it's happening don't trust you enough to discuss the problem with you, and so it's not in your sphere of awareness. I'm a pretty average straight white dude, but I have seen this happen, right in front of me, at multiple jobs, and absolutely nothing happened except when I spoke up and started something over it. The targets didn't say anything, because the power imbalance (real or perceived; I tend to think the latter, but then, I'm not the one being attacked and made to feel powerless in the first place) was too great.
    • 794CD01 11y ago
      Unfortunately, child abuse is, in fact, rampant among musicians. Want to try a different argument?
• kelukelugames 11y ago
  "sexual harassment for nearly over a decade, with student allegations of unwanted massages, groping, and kissing" I think that is much more than being an asshole. As a straight man, I don't even know if it's possible to make me feel this uncomfortable in the workplace.
• throwaway_23049 11y ago
  I've worked at a company that clearly had a brogrammer, hostile environment vibe, which the people in power were simply not conscious of. I'm happy to report that over several years, attitudes improved, more women got hired, and the environment became much better. It took effort and strategic issue framing from those of us who wanted to see change, and it took flexibility from those who decided to become part of the change -- but it happened.
• QuotedForTruth 11y ago
  Yes. People exist who may seem like really great bosses and nice people but are also aggressive and entitled with their female coworkers. It is important not to think of sexual harassment as only the skeevy creep who purposely takes advantage of women he has power over (although these people definitely exist too). Women have a right to work without being sexualized at all. Many times it is well meaning, otherwise good people who over step professional boundaries. They don't make an advance expecting to make the woman feel uncomfortable, but that doesn't make it ok either!
  • masklinn 11y ago
    > are also aggressive and entitled with their female coworkers. and more generally any one deemed of inferior status and/or easy to prey on (women commonly being slotted in these categories either way), the number of people who will seem perfectly nice around their colleagues but will abuse staff (e.g. serving or cleaning agents, or secretaries) at the drop of a hat is astounding and disheartening.
  • ElComradio 11y ago
    Yet something like 30% of office workers have had office romances. Are you going to tell all of those people they should not have flirted?
    • vkou 11y ago
      Depending on the circumstances, asking someone out for a coffee is one thing. Asking them five times is almost certainly harassment.
      • semi-extrinsic 11y ago
        > Asking them five times is almost certainly harassment. Yet this behavior is romanticised is popular culture, and has been from the dawn of time up to and including the present: Oddyseus and Helen of Troy, Shakespeare's "The taming of the shrew", tons of Fred Astaire movies, as well as modern movies like "Ghost", "Life is beautiful", "Chasing Amy", TV shows like "Sex and the city"... I could go on. Lucikly I don't need to, since TVtropes has a site dedicated to this character (the "dogged nice guy"). And note that many of these are targeted at, and very popular with, women (who are usually at the receiving end of the initially-unwarranted attention). Apparently this behaviour can walk a thin line between illegal and very very romantic.
• zzzeek 11y ago
  if your bosses are groping you sexually, then they are sexual harassers, it doesn't matter what gender you are. If by "their idiotic demands and abuse", it's asking you on dates / groping you / etc., I wouldn't really classify that as "welcome to the workforce", it's harassment.
  • driverdan 11y ago
    That's not harassment, that's assault.
• fweespee_ch 11y ago
  > So when I read these articles I wonder if it's the same people and how they translate treating male workers like garbage into treating female workers like garbage. It's not misogyny; it's welcome to the workforce and dealing with people above you who are neither competent not deserving of their positions and their power trips and borderline psychopathy. I think what the issue is when it comes to the male boss/female employee dynamic is those power trips frequently take on a sexual dynamic in private. > What do you think? Or are there really nice bosses who are just complete assholes to women with zero crossover? I know one manager I used to work with who seemed nice but literally every single hire he has made has been an asian female. He also was the only one besides me with an office with essentially no windows. [i.e. You close the door, no one can see in.] However, I never close my door for that reason while he does so all the time. I think that was a lawsuit waiting to happen and I've said as much. However, my concerns were basically ignored since the one who confided in me that he does that sort of thing was terrified of losing her job since this was the third job she has had in 2 years [She is extremely attractive and had a similar problem at the previous jobs she got out of college]. She started carrying pepper spray instead.
  • stcredzero 11y ago
    I think what the issue is when it comes to the male boss/female employee dynamic is those power trips frequently take on a sexual dynamic in private. Dominance is messily tied into sexuality. This plays out in school locker rooms and boarding school dormitories. I know one manager I used to work with who seemed nice but literally every single hire he has made has been an asian female. So what? In itself, this shouldn't be a significant factor. Please explain this: Do you think for some reason that asian females are somehow more enticing or vulnerable? Just how large a sample size are we talking here? Is his department a dozen asian women? Twenty?
    • fweespee_ch 11y ago
      > So what? In itself, this shouldn't be a significant factor. 1) He is clearly hiring based on a fetish he has. 2) They were hired to replace male, white, african-american, or hispanic members of his department over a period of ~2 years. The area is almost entirely a white and/or hispanic population so there is no way this is coincidence. 3) The odds of a guy rolling the same 20 sided die 12 times and always coming up with the same number is highly improbable. Roughly 5% of the applicants were female and Asian. I somehow doubt the most competent were always in that 5%. 4) Its a baker's dozen (13).
• ar0 11y ago
  What a strange comparison. I have had my fair share of less than stellar bosses, but just by virtue of being male none of them tried to touch me, invite me to a date or told me to wear sexier clothing in order for the client meeting to be more successful. Yes, it can very well be that the same people are treating male workers like garbage and treating female workers like garbage, it's just that when you are male, this mistreatment is restricted to the work place and non-physical, which makes it far less intrusive (I would guess... I am male so it is hard for me to really relate with women in such situations, but I do know that I would freak out if my boss would try to touch me!).
• rayiner 11y ago
  > Or are there really nice bosses who are just complete assholes to women with zero crossover? That's an unnecessary dichotomy. A third possibility is that there are asshole bosses who have additional tools in their arsenal when it comes to harassing woman employees.
• scott_s 11y ago
  I agree with a lot of the other responses, but also keep in mind that academia has a very different structure than what you're used to. Individuals tend to be less able to move around, particularly when they are grad students. That tends to give others more power over them.
• uremog 11y ago
  I know some past male coworkers who were general assholes to both men and women. But out of those, the women got it much worse. Like in the article, these men were often in some kind of "good ol' boys" club - friends with important people, etc. So yeah, it happens (IT/CS field).
• Paul-ish 11y ago
  I don't see how this make a difference. Workers shouldn't have to accept abuse and poor treatment from others. Saying that someone treats everyone equally poorly too doesn't excuse their behavior. If we can effectively fight against jerks in the workplace by making it a fight against misogyny in the workplace, that seems better than the current situation.