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Yet people find it hard to understand why some people might be somewhat offended by a shirt with scantily clad women during a press conference. Things do not h
by bunnymancer 11y ago
Yet people find it hard to understand why some people might be somewhat offended by a shirt with scantily clad women during a press conference.
Things do not happen in a vacuum and pretending like nothing is wrong isn't going to help anyone get anywhere.
- sp332 11y agoThe guy wore the shirt to a celebration after working with those co-workers for 10 years. It wasn't intended to look "professional" and I'm pretty sure none of those co-workers were offended. The reason the shirt was a bad idea is that it was easily misinterpreted by people watching the press conference. Edit: I didn't see it at the time, but this article exactly reflects my perspective on the thing. http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2014/11/why-a-shirt-with-scantily-clad-women-caused-an-internet-fight/382812/ http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2014/11/why-a-sh... Edit2: I agree with bunnymancer's comment as far as it goes. But I don't think the shirt is a very big problem. It would be almost insignificant if it weren't interacting with the big problem we already have.
- ainiriand 11y agoA shirt that depicts women as objects or objectized women is just plain wrong. I do not care about the celebration.
- mooseburger 11y agoIt's art. The shirt was also made by a woman, for what it's worth.
- vkou 11y agoNude paintings are also art, but if you hang a couple in your office, you'll have a lawsuit waiting to happen.
- mooseburger 11y agoReally? I would fight that lawsuit tooth and nail. Neo-puritanism makes my blood boil.
- vkou 11y agoThat is also one kind of lawsuit where your personal assets will be on the line if you lose. Regardless of what you think of Puritanism, don't sexualize the workplace.
- ainiriand 11y agoNabokov's Lolita is also art. Lester the molester is also art. Invalid argument.
- GFK_of_xmaspast 11y agoHave you actually read Lolita.
- ainiriand 11y agoYes, I found it quite interesting but deeply disturbing. You can rest assured that I'm not the only one: http://www.slate.com/articles/arts/books/2005/12/lolita_at_50.html http://www.slate.com/articles/arts/books/2005/12/lolita_at_5... https://101books.net/2011/12/15/lolita-inside-the-mind-of-a-pedophile/ https://101books.net/2011/12/15/lolita-inside-the-mind-of-a-...
- corford 11y agoYou do realise the shirt was given to him by a female colleague/friend right?
- ceejayoz 11y agoSo what? If a black friend gives me a shirt with the N-word on it, that doesn't mean I should wear it at work.
- corford 11y agoContext is key. I haven't followed this shirt brouhaha in any serious depth but I assume that all of his colleagues and management saw him wearing the shirt before he delivered his talk. AFAIK it became a problem afterwards. So, if you (not me) want to equate a shirt with female characters on it to a shirt with the N-word on it then, yes, if the workplace context was right why not wear it at work (e.g. I'm thinking an indie record label or similar environment with black, white, whatever people working together as a tight team and a black friend of a white guy bought him said t-shirt). Ultimately, it's up to the guy wearing the t-shirt to make a judgement call as to whether doing so would offend or not offend his friends and colleagues. So: context, relationship with everyone else at the place he works at, balanced sensitivity etc. If he honestly (not deliberately) makes the wrong call, he should apologise and everyone should move on. Work is a place for adults, not children on a lynching party.
- Chris2048 11y agoIf you're white, and your black friend gives you a shirt with the N-word on it, they aren't your friend.
- ceejayoz 11y agoThese guys are probably friends. http://realfunny.net/picture-3097-these-two-friends-wearing-my-nigga-and-my-redneck-shirts-better-not-get-separated-.html http://realfunny.net/picture-3097-these-two-friends-wearing-... They probably don't wear the shirts to work.
- 11y ago
- ownagefool 11y agoDo you find it wrong in general or wrong in a professional setting?
- ainiriand 11y agoIn general. Women should not be shown as objects, prices, decoration, etc... It is bad for all the women and puts us the men in a false superior position.
- ownagefool 11y agoThat's interesting. What do you think woman who do this or desire to be viewed like this?
- cmdrfred 11y agoYour right lets throw a blanket over Michelangelo's David and head home to our safe spaces.
- rokhayakebe 11y agoYou make a good point. There is a lot of art out there about naked men and women and no one cares.
- LoSboccacc 11y agothere's a precedent with that - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daniele_da_Volterra#The_loincloths_in_Michelangelo.27s_Last_Judgment https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daniele_da_Volterra#The_loincl... and we're headed straight there, again.
- ainiriand 11y agoThis is not about how the art was made some centuries ago. In that time all women had a hard time chosing even their own lives, couples and rights. It is about the current fight and rights.
- deong 11y agoAs stated by no less than the supreme court, we all recognize the difference between Michelangelo and Larry Flynt.
- sp332 11y agoI don't think you're going to convince anyone by just stating what your view is. Give some reasons or something.
- ainiriand 11y agoI have to give a reasons to why a shirt that depicts naked women is wrong?
- sp332 11y agoWell, yeah. (Also they're not naked.) Heck, there are Bibles that have pictures of naked women in them. Are you saying women aren't allowed to be naked, or no one is allowed to make pictures of them, or they should only be photographs and not fantasies, or what exactly?
- Someone1234 11y agoObjectification doesn't really apply to a still image. The whole trope was initially about women in media being the object of the male character's conquest. Essentially the women were turned into nothing more than props. A t-shirt depicting scantily clad women may be in poor taste and likely isn't professional, but doesn't really contribute to the objectification of women. Women are allowed to be sexualised (just as men are), the line is drawn when women are subjugated to only that role (which, again, we witness in some media, games, movies, TV, rarely books). You're just moralising right and wrong and then using objectification as some kind of trump card, no matter how little it applies. Men are allowed to wear t-shirts with half naked women on them, it isn't inherently sexist, just tacky and unprofessional (in my opinion).
- ainiriand 11y agoThe view that you, as an individual, bring to the world, is exactly what makes the world the way it is. That's why a shirt is a reflection of a reality. Now it is a shirt, tomorrow it is a perfume advertising image. The next day it is a man who thinks that the woman he is married to is his belonging.
- Someone1234 11y agoThat's actually the view academics such as philosopher Martha Nussbaum bring to the world. See their definition of objectification here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Objectification#Definitions https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Objectification#Definitions As you can see, doesn't apply. A static t-shirt image of any sort is always an object but never objectification, because it lacks the context it would need to be more. Objectification was never about naked Vs. clothed. It was about how women are treated and viewed as individuals. It is about autonomy and being more than a 2D prop for male character's use. You can be naked and still have a great deal of personality, story importance, and be respected by both male characters within the medium and the writers. See Game of Thrones. There is an absolute ton of nudity in that, and yes, there is objectification (e.g. background sex) but the show gets a pass because female leads are given a great deal of importance, autonomy, and respect. They're nobody's props or objects.
- deleted 11y ago[deleted]
- ainiriand 11y agoRelated: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11373316 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11373316
- sp332 11y agoI think brudgers's advice is excellent, and I would encourage you again to take it. I hope this doesn't sound too pushy, it's just a suggestion.
- ainiriand 11y agoIt is an excellent advice. Made by someone who writes for a living. However, the comment system is not made to make us all agree about everything. My concern is about the restriction you put in a unconscious way to your opinions when there is dissent. Is this a kind of censorship? A very sofisticate one?
- sp332 11y agoI don't see the point in expressing your opinions on this forum if you don't care whether anyone agrees with you. If you're not interested in connecting with the readers and influencing them, why not just keep it to yourself? What are you accomplishing by posting here?
- ainiriand 11y agoI really do care if the 'audience' agrees with me. What I'm trying to understand is why I have to restrain myself just because I think that I might not be under the most popular line of thought or going to arise some controversy. No one deserves downvoting for expressing its line of thought even if it is an unpopular one. I would never downvote anyone for expressing its beliefs in a proper manner.
- deleted 11y ago[deleted]
- ainiriand 11y agoIn a more general note about the downvotes about sexism: https://medium.com/@sh4ka/sexism-and-hacker-news-6678897fccc0#.5xwli12ya https://medium.com/@sh4ka/sexism-and-hacker-news-6678897fccc...
- collyw 11y agoDemonstrates that context is everything. Do most of the people reading this thread think it is sexist?
- yitchelle 11y agoThere is no excuse for these type of behaviour, none.
- hakann 11y agoI do not know much about their workplace but I think you are assuming too much when you say you are sure his co-workers were just fine with it. I worked in academia and startups all my life so I am used to seeing casual shirts being worn but that was way too much. We do not hang that kind of pictures around the office. We do not want people to look at that kind of pictures in the office. Not just in the office also in any work related function. How can you claim that nobody in his workplace was offended when he is walking around with pictures that would be offensive in any other form?
- sp332 11y agoI'm not positive. But that would be between them and their employer. I think it's odd that I can't find a quote from any of his co-workers (men or women) about the issue. They are the only ones who would have standing to complain on a normal day without news cameras around. Edit: found the video I was looking for. NASA made this one two years earlier https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2KnTpm9Y77E https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2KnTpm9Y77E So, still speculation, but we do have some idea of attitudes at NASA.
- QuotedForTruth 11y agoAfter reading the OP's linked article, do you see why his female coworkers may have been reluctant to openly and publicly complain about his shirt? "Mia" isn't the woman's real name. She talks about the threats of backlash to her career she has received.
- BobCat 11y ago> that kind of pictures Pictures of clothed women are not offensive unless you're a religious fundamentalist. He has tattoos of sexy women, should he wear a burka to spare your feelings?
- deleted 11y ago[deleted]
- kelukelugames 11y agoIn a forum dominated by men, under-socialized men because they have few female co workers, there is a lack of understanding and sympathy for anything less than groping. Last time I was on here, HN users defended their right to make dick jokes in the work place.
- mooseburger 11y agoDick jokes in the workplace are ok. Serious question, why wouldn't they be?
- vkou 11y agoThey aren't if someone has a problem with them. Because there are plenty of jokes you can tell that don't refer to genitalia?
- matthewmacleod 11y agoWhile generally I would tend to avoid dick jokes in the workplace, primarily because they're not particularly professional, it's a poor argument that they are not appropriate because 'someone has a problem with them.' In a large workplace, 'someone' will have a problem with any joke about any topic.
- vkou 11y agoWhich is a great reason for why you should keep edgy humour out of the office. In the US, we value the right to make a living in a hostility-free work environment more then the right to say whatever you want at work.
- mooseburger 11y agoSo long as the joke isn't putting down someone (could be bullying), any joke is ok IMO.
- ainiriand 11y ago
- sjs382 11y agoThat was the first thing I thought of when seeing this article's title, too. Here, for reference: https://static-secure.guim.co.uk/sys-images/Guardian/Pix/pictures/2014/11/14/1415997502957/Dr-Matt-Taylor-012.jpg https://static-secure.guim.co.uk/sys-images/Guardian/Pix/pic...
- Houshalter 11y agoThe stupid shirt controversy trivializes real issues. This article is about actual cases of sexual harassment and even assault. People don't take it as seriously because now sexism now mostly means people getting offended at silly shirts. I clicked on the article honestly expecting it to be something trivial like that, and was alarmed at the seriousness of it.
- deleted 11y ago[deleted]