7 ms·

Why is this a union issue and not a legal one? In other words, why do teachers need a union to enforce legally binding contracts?

foldr 17y ago
Because the law doesn't automatically enforce itself. It takes times and resources to go to court -- and usually more of each than a single individual has available.
- eru 17y ago
  How about legal expense insurance?
  - akgerber 17y ago
    "Sue-somebody-who-screws-me" insurance seems like it has a pretty poor incentive structure.
  - foldr 17y ago
    Great idea. Now how about we form a union so we can spread the cost.
    - eru 17y ago
      Isn't insurance about spreading the cost already?
      - foldr 17y ago
        Yes, and forming a union is an effective way of doing that. As other people have pointed out, it's unlikely that any more general form of legal insurance would make sense as a product. If I were a teacher, I think I'd far rather rely on a union -- made up of people who share my interests -- than a company which is going to do its best to deny my claims. And if I were an insurance exec, I don't think that insuring teachers' legal expenses would strike me as a particularly great business opportunity.
        yummyfajitas 17y ago
        Forming a union has the problem that it violates the rights of others (unlike buying insurance). If person E wants my labor, I have the right to trade it with him for money under any conditions we both find acceptable. If E's other employees band together, E and I both lose our rights - I can no longer freely sell my labor to him. That's as crazy as if Apple and Microsoft merged, and then got the government to declare Linux illegal.
        foldr 17y ago
        >Forming a union has the problem that it violates the rights of others (unlike buying insurance). Yeah, and if you want to be that simple-minded about it, banning unions violates the right of individuals to associate to protect their collective interests. I don't personally find it very interesting to have yet another discussion about libertarianism. I am not a libertarian. I am aware of the arguments for that position and do not find them persuasive. But it's kind of tedious that every argument about every political issue on this site seems to come back to this one discussion. Obviously if you are a libertarian, you will be opposed to unionization in general; I'm sure all of us here take that as read. Perhaps the rest of us can actually be allowed to discuss the issue at hand -- I have a feeling that any minute now someone is going to start copy/pasting Locke quotes.
        yummyfajitas 17y ago
        Obviously if you are a libertarian, you will be opposed to unionization in general; That's utterly untrue. Libertarians oppose the special legal privileges given to unions, not the right to free association. You have the right to form a union, but your employer is not compelled to negotiate with the union and can still hire/fire at will. As for your complaint "oh noes, I don't like to hear libertarian's opinions, but hacker sites are full of the libertarians", sorry to hear that. You are welcome to create your own HN-type site which allows limited discussion on politics but forbids libertarian opinions - HN is open source so it shouldn't even be that hard.
        17y ago

foldr 17y ago

Because the law doesn't automatically enforce itself. It takes times and resources to go to court -- and usually more of each than a single individual has available.

eru 17y ago
How about legal expense insurance?
- akgerber 17y ago
  "Sue-somebody-who-screws-me" insurance seems like it has a pretty poor incentive structure.
- foldr 17y ago
  Great idea. Now how about we form a union so we can spread the cost.
  - eru 17y ago
    Isn't insurance about spreading the cost already?
    - foldr 17y ago
      Yes, and forming a union is an effective way of doing that. As other people have pointed out, it's unlikely that any more general form of legal insurance would make sense as a product. If I were a teacher, I think I'd far rather rely on a union -- made up of people who share my interests -- than a company which is going to do its best to deny my claims. And if I were an insurance exec, I don't think that insuring teachers' legal expenses would strike me as a particularly great business opportunity.
      - yummyfajitas 17y ago
        Forming a union has the problem that it violates the rights of others (unlike buying insurance). If person E wants my labor, I have the right to trade it with him for money under any conditions we both find acceptable. If E's other employees band together, E and I both lose our rights - I can no longer freely sell my labor to him. That's as crazy as if Apple and Microsoft merged, and then got the government to declare Linux illegal.
        foldr 17y ago
        >Forming a union has the problem that it violates the rights of others (unlike buying insurance). Yeah, and if you want to be that simple-minded about it, banning unions violates the right of individuals to associate to protect their collective interests. I don't personally find it very interesting to have yet another discussion about libertarianism. I am not a libertarian. I am aware of the arguments for that position and do not find them persuasive. But it's kind of tedious that every argument about every political issue on this site seems to come back to this one discussion. Obviously if you are a libertarian, you will be opposed to unionization in general; I'm sure all of us here take that as read. Perhaps the rest of us can actually be allowed to discuss the issue at hand -- I have a feeling that any minute now someone is going to start copy/pasting Locke quotes.
        yummyfajitas 17y ago
        Obviously if you are a libertarian, you will be opposed to unionization in general; That's utterly untrue. Libertarians oppose the special legal privileges given to unions, not the right to free association. You have the right to form a union, but your employer is not compelled to negotiate with the union and can still hire/fire at will. As for your complaint "oh noes, I don't like to hear libertarian's opinions, but hacker sites are full of the libertarians", sorry to hear that. You are welcome to create your own HN-type site which allows limited discussion on politics but forbids libertarian opinions - HN is open source so it shouldn't even be that hard.
        17y ago