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The Black Death: The Greatest Catastrophe (2005)
- BorisVSchmid 10y ago"Published in History TodayVolume 55 Issue 3 March 2005" The article is a bit old, and misses out on the large amount of genetic evidence since then sequenced and analyzed. Cui et al found that the closest living relatives to the Black Death stem from north-west China. That is about the only evidence we have on where the Black Death came from, and it does point to an origin in or near China. http://www.pnas.org/content/110/2/577.figures-only http://www.pnas.org/content/110/2/577.figures-only
- halov 10y ago"If you hear of an outbreak of plague in a land, do not enter it; but if the plague breaks out in a place while you are in it, do not leave that place."
- smegel 10y agoWhat is that from and what does it mean?
- Udo 10y agoIt's apparently from a muslim religious text. I found this very interesting because it's a rule that covers both self-preservation ("don't enter the infected zone") and quarantine ("if infected, stay where you are"). It's an early containment protocol. What seems most fascinating to me is that by proscribing this from a religious channel, you can circumvent psychological mechanisms that would otherwise cause people to act in their own self interest - and in this case it actually works for the greater good.
- Cyph0n 10y agoAs a Muslim HN reader, I never expected to see one of Prophet Mohammed's sayings in a comment. There's a first time for everything I guess!
- louthy 10y agoI grew up in Derbyshire and remember being taught at a young age about the village of Eyam that quarantined itself when the plague arrived on an infected parcel of damp cloth from London. "It's hard to imagine that the quiet village of Eyam, off the A623 in Derbyshire, could have such a fascinating, yet tragic story to tell. But .... at the end of August 1665 bubonic plague arrived at the house of the village tailor George Viccars, via a parcel of cloth from London. The cloth was damp and was hung out in front of the fire to dry, thus releasing the plague infested fleas. On 7th September 1665, George Viccars, the first plague victim, died of a raging fever. As the plague took hold and decimated the villagers it was decided to hold the church services outdoors at nearby Cucklett Delf and, on the advice of rector William Mompesson and the previous incumbent Thomas Stanley, villagers stayed within the confines of the village to minimize the spread of the disease. Cucklett Delf was also the secret meeting place of sweethearts Emmott Sydall, from Eyam, and Rowland Torre, who was from a neighbouring village. They would call to each other across the rocks, until Emmott Sydall herself became a victim of the plague. Six of the eight Sydall family died, and their neighbours lost nine family members." "To minimize cross infection, food and other supplies were left outside the village, at either the Boundary Stones, or at Mompesson's Well, high above the village. The Earl of Devonshire, who lived at Chatsworth House, freely donated food and medical supplies. For all other goods, money, as payment, was either purified by the running water in the well or was left in vinegar soaked holes. The Riley graves, close to Riley House Farm and approximately 1/2 mile from the village house the bodies of the husband and six children of farmer Elizabeth Hancock. All died within a week of each other. Because of the high risk of infecting her neighbours she had the traumatic task of burying them all herself. Even more tragic is that the infection probably came to her family when she helped bury another villager's body. Twelve months after the death of George Vicars, the plague was still claiming its victims, and on 25th August 1666 Catherine Mompesson, wife of the recently appointed rector William Mompesson (aged 28) , died of the plague. She had loyally stayed with her husband and tended the sick, only to become a victim herself." "The Plague in Eyam raged for 14 months and claimed the lives of at least 260 villagers. By 1st November 1666 it had run its course and claimed its last victim. Eyam's selfless villagers, with their strong Christian convictions, had shown immense personal courage and self sacrifice. They had prevented the plague from spreading to other parishes, but many paid the ultimate price for their commitment." http://www.beautifulbritain.co.uk/htm/outandabout/eyam.htm http://www.beautifulbritain.co.uk/htm/outandabout/eyam.htm https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eyam https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eyam
- OliverJones 10y agoI wonder whether the cleanliness discipline of Islam (washing before prayers, etc.) has made any difference to public health in Muslim-majority places? Conversely, does the vast yearly Hajj gathering ever have the unintended consequence of spreading epidemics worldwide?
- Fomite 10y ago> vast yearly Hajj gathering ever have the unintended consequence of spreading epidemics worldwide? Hajj epidemiology is indeed a fairly active field.
- Ma8ee 10y agoIsn't that why religions have been so successful. They are not only a psychological coping mechanisms, but actually increase the success (or fitness, if you like) of the societies they dominate. So this (don't leave an infected area) is an excellent meme in Dawkins' original sense.
- marvin 10y agoThis is true for many of the writings in the old testament religions as well. Sensible advice for a different time and society.
- deleted 10y ago[deleted]
- Razengan 10y agoReligion (like philosophy and superstition) is probably just the precursor to Science; a sapient species trying to make sense of their world and consciousness, plugging the holes in their understanding with the means currently at their disposal. Unless they're born with complete and accurate knowledge about everything in the universe, I think all intelligent life out there is going to have a "religion" at some point in their civilization.
- krzrak 10y ago> Religion (and philosophy and superstition) is probably just the precursor to science This is first thing. The other is precursor of law and social norms. It is hard to explain to people, that they shouldn't steal, because "it's wrong" and it hurts society. It's easier, when you tell them they will burn in hell for that.
- 1stop 10y agoIt's actually easier (and more intuitive) to explain it in terms of reciprocity. We have an innate understanding of it.
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- wobbleblob 10y agoCompared to the Permian-Triassic extinction event, the black death barely qualifies as a mishap, let alone the greatest catastrophe ever !
- azazqadir 10y agoFor humans, it was the greatest catastrophe. Remember Permian-Triassic period didn't just affected one species and there were no humans during that period. You could say our ancestors were affected though.
- arethuza 10y agoThere is the Toba catastrophe theory - basically that the huge eruption of Toba caused a reduction of the number of breeding pairs of humans down to a few thousand: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toba_catastrophe_theory https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toba_catastrophe_theory
- danieltillett 10y agoHasn't the Toba theory been discredited?
- spacehome 10y agoPerhaps the volcano wasn't the cause, but IIRC there's reason to think that humans display less genetic diversity than might be expected, pointing towards a bottleneck somewhere in the past.
- danieltillett 10y agoHumans are very unusual from a genetic perspective that makes analysis of us difficult. Firstly, the population has expand hugely in a very short time so there are all sorts of founder effects. Secondly, the selection presure completely changed a few thousand years ago with the transition from hunter-gather to farming. These two factors make it really hard to use the normal genetic tools and concepts to study human evolution and draw accurate conclusions.
- azazqadir 10y ago"The infection takes three–five days to incubate in people before they fall ill, and another three–five days before, in 80 per cent of the cases, the victims die." Takes at least 6 days for the infected to die. That's a really deadly disease. Even Ebola was not that fast. The WHO website mentioned that it takes 21 days for Ebola patient to show just the symptoms, which could mean it would still take few more days for the patient to die.
- JimmyM 10y agoThis is partly why there have been rival Ebola-like 'haemorrhagic plague' theories of the Black Death, although they're still niche theories. Confusing matters is the fact that some accounts of symptoms make it sound like Pneumonic plague was also affecting victims, and killing them even faster. Possibly there was some perfect storm of plagues spreading through multiple vectors at once, with haemorrhagic pneumonic and bubonic plagues striking at different places with different frequencies. Without a means to distinguish between the plagues (and other diseases), pretty much any death caused by communicable disease would at the time be considered part of the Black Death.
- czechdeveloper 10y agoDoesn't that make Ebola more deadly? 21 days walking around, spreading it.
- azazqadir 10y agoThat's another way of thinking. But a deadly disease is one where death is certain and fatality rate is high. You could say that Ebola had higher chances of spreading, along with being deadly.
- yakshemash 10y agoTransmission of Ebola occurs only after patient develops the symptoms of the disease anywhere between 2 days and 3 weeks after infection [1]. By then most patients are not in a condition to be "walking around". [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ebola_virus_disease https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ebola_virus_disease
- febeling 10y agomany people are convinced today that the (smallpox and other) epidemics introduced to north america by european settlers were real. allegedly 100m native american people inhabited north america before and it is assumed that 90% fell victim to these epidemics. that would make it a greater catastrophe, measured by number of casualties, if i'm not mistaken?
- danmaz74 10y agoThat was for sure a big catastrophe, but where did you get your numbers? "The population figure for indigenous peoples in the Americas before the 1492 voyage of Christopher Columbus has proven difficult to establish. Scholars rely on archaeological data and written records from settlers from the Old World. Most scholars writing at the end of the 19th century estimated the pre-Columbian population as low as 10 million; by the end of the 20th century most scholars gravitate to a middle estimate of around 50 million, with some historians arguing for 100 million or more." - that's for both North and South America. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Population_history_of_indigenous_peoples_of_the_Americas https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Population_history_of_indigeno...
- cmrdporcupine 10y agoThe population numbers are a matter of huge dispute. But there is recent genetic evidence that a severe narrowing of genetic diversity happened across the continent. And a fairly recent one.
- epimetheus 10y ago< many people are convinced today that the (smallpox and other) epidemics introduced to north america by european settlers were real. Out of curiosity, why do you word it this way? I'm curious because I have a coworker that thinks the smallpox story is some evil liberal conspiracy of some sort, and never happened. Yet I see only evidence for, not against.
- maxerickson 10y agoMass death from disease clearly happened. I think there is some room to question how much of it was intentional. Clearly some of it was intentional, but if diseases unthinkingly carried over on the first voyages are responsible for a large number of the deaths, we should take note of that.
- SixSigma 10y agoOr, as some might say, the best thing that ever happened to European society. Paper became cheap because of a cotton glut and labour became expensive leading to egalitarian lifestyles.
- throwaway049 10y agoThe aristocracy were against egalitarian lifestyles immediately following the plague. A maximum wage system was established in England [0] [0] http://www.bloombergview.com/articles/2013-09-05/how-the-black-death-spawned-the-minimum-wage http://www.bloombergview.com/articles/2013-09-05/how-the-bla...
- bb101 10y agoDubious placement of Frankfurt on the included map.
- BorisVSchmid 10y agoThat is a valid Frankfurt :-) see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frankfurt_(Oder) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frankfurt_(Oder) Ran into a lot of examples like that when merging two existing georeferenced datasets of plague outbreaks in Europe. Had to do quite some manual checking, and made good use of the damerau-levenshtein distance between two strings to recognize alternative spellings. end-result here: https://figshare.com/articles/plague_outbreaks_in_medieval_Europe/1317283 https://figshare.com/articles/plague_outbreaks_in_medieval_E...
- Maultasche 10y agoIn Germany, it's common to have cities in different parts of Germany with the same name. In such cases, one usually puts a nearby geographic feature (usually a river) or region next to the name of the city. In this particular case, it's Frankfurt (Main) vs Frankfurt (Oder). I'm a little puzzled as to the inclusion of Frankfurt (Oder) on the map. It was a city of decent size in the Middle Ages, but nowhere near the importance of any of the other cities displayed on the map.
- BorisVSchmid 10y agoIt basically comes down to data availability, and some historian digging through the available archives. For example, Givry is a tiny place somewhere in France, but for which by happenstance the parish registers at the time of the Black Death survived. They record the daily number of deaths, which end abruptly when presumably the priest died after recording ~620 deaths since the beginning of the epidemic in that town. The town's population is estimated at around 1170 people, based on the death rate in the earlier months, leading to a lower end estimate of 53% mortality (if the death of the priest was also the end of the epidemic). (from page 306 of http://www.persee.fr/doc/bec_0373-6237_1939_num_100_1_449196) [0 0 0 0 2 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 1 1 0 0 0 2 0 0 0 0 0 3 2 0 0] ;; jul. . approximate start of epidemic somewhere during jul. [0 4 4 1 0 2 1 7 5 3 1 1 4 5 3 3 4 1 5 2 2 4 3 6 2 2 2 6 3 8 4 6 10] ;; aug. [6 9 8 8 4 6 15 3 11 24 7 10 15 10 14 11 17 8 6 3 17 6 11 16 7 16 12 5 10 7] ;; sept [7 6 7 7 8 7 6 6 9 4 7 9 3 14 5 5 4 8 6 7 3 2 5 4 4 2 3 1 3 0 6] ;; oct [3 4 3 4 0 2 1 0 4 3 2 1 0 0 5 0 0 0 3] ;; nov, records end with the dead of the priest, worst of the epidemic is over.
- nonbel 10y agoHas anyone read this book that proposes the "black death" was due to meteor/comet strikes? I have been interested in doing so but never got around to it. http://www.amazon.com/Light-Black-Death-Mike-Baillie/dp/0752435981/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1198070365&sr=8-1 http://www.amazon.com/Light-Black-Death-Mike-Baillie/dp/0752...
- BorisVSchmid 10y agoGlanced at the abstract, and the amazon reviews. The medieval medical guilds were well aware of the clinical symptoms of the Black Death, so I wonder how Mike Baillie connects the characteristic buboes of the plague with meteor strikes? I enjoyed reading this paper: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2632865/ http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2632865/ The paper highlights several aspects of plague that were different between the second and third plague pandemic, and which caused a scientific movement that searched for alternative explanations for the Black Death - that is, until the Yersinia pestis bacterium got sequenced from multiple Black Death mass graves.
- nonbel 10y agoI'm not familiar with the arguments in the book, but in general it could be both. The impacts could disrupt society (eg via crop failure) which leads to a breakdown of sanitary practices and poverty which leads to spread of disease.
- epimetheus 10y agoAs mentioned in another comment, smallpox has killed more than it's fair share of humans. An estimated 300 million in the 20th century alone[0]. Maybe lesser known is the Spanish Flu which killed more than 50 million people worldwide within 2 years (1918, 1919). The strangest thing is that it seems to have largely targeted young and healthy adults (it, like the Black Plague, seems to have originated in China[1]). [0] -http://www.who.int/about/bugs_drugs_smoke_chapter_1_smallpox.pdf http://www.who.int/about/bugs_drugs_smoke_chapter_1_smallpox... [1] - http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2014/01/140123-spanish-flu-1918-china-origins-pandemic-science-health/ http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2014/01/140123-spani...
- cstross 10y agoThe Spanish flu's mortality isn't that mysterious today (samples have been extracted from victims buried in cold climates, and its genome sequenced). It turns out that in young, healthy victims it provokes a cytokine storm -- an overreaction by the immune system that causes a massive inflammatory response and fluid build-up in the lungs (with potential for secondary bacterial infection). Ironically, older or younger victims with weaker immune systems were less likely to succumb to this reaction: More here: https://www.scripps.edu/news/press/2014/20140227oldstonerosen.html https://www.scripps.edu/news/press/2014/20140227oldstonerose...
- jordanlev 10y agoFYI, the article specifically talks about how the Black Plague did not originate in China.
- nxzero 10y agoRelated topic is the "Great Dying" which killed the majority of Native Americans: http://www.pbs.org/gunsgermssteel/variables/smallpox.html http://www.pbs.org/gunsgermssteel/variables/smallpox.html Of note is how smallpox was used as a weapon: >> "You will do well to try to inoculate the Indians, by means of blankets, as well as to try every other method that can serve to extirpate this execrable race." — Jeffery Amherst Sources: Disease as a weapon against Native Americans https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Native_American_disease_and_epidemics https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Native_American_disease_and_... Smallpox Blankets http://cherokeeregistry.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=407&Itemid=617 http://cherokeeregistry.com/index.php?option=com_content&vie...
- baldfat 10y agoI am proud to be an American but ... We used Germ Warfare to a whole new level vs Native Americans. (Germ warfare was used throughout history AKA throwing dead things into fortifications etc) We are the only country to have used Nuclear Weapons But in terms of killing nothing compares to Mosquitoes with them spreading malaria, dengue and yellow fever. Malaria kills 2,700,000 a year.
- nxzero 10y agoBiowarfare has a long history: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_biological_warfare https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_biological_warfar... Some believe that dead bodies infected with the black plague were catapulted over the walls in the siege of Kaffe.
- jqm 10y agoI live in the US but I'm not taking credit for the smallpox thing. That was the doing of a few people at most, and I'm not one of them. I don't think it was even official policy, so my great grandfathers vote can't be implicated either. I get very tired of the collective American guilt trip. I don't see how it does anyone any good.
- cloudjacker 10y ago
- kempe 10y agoIt was not a big deal in Sweden. The government was acting fast to quarantine the areas. Mostly only children bellow 14 died. A few years later however most families had new children. All in all it was not a big deal for that point in time. Remember that back in those days most people had more children per person and death was a larger part of life than now.
- frozenport 10y agoThis isn't true: >>In the middle of the 14th century, Sweden was struck by the Black Death.[28] The population of Sweden and most of Europe was seriously decimated. And the population (at same territory) as existed by 1348 did not reach the same numbers again until the beginning of the 19th century. One third of the population died during 1349–1351. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sweden https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sweden [2] http://staff.harrisonburg.k12.va.us/~cwalton/walton/SOLPics/bdmaptest.jpg http://staff.harrisonburg.k12.va.us/~cwalton/walton/SOLPics/...
- kempe 10y agoYou are wrong. Read Olle Larsson and Andreas Marklunds book Svensk Historia. http://www.bokus.com/bok/9789175452531/svensk-historia/ http://www.bokus.com/bok/9789175452531/svensk-historia/
- BorisVSchmid 10y agoAuthors can be wrong in interpreting the available (or lack of available) information. According to Ole Benedictow, there is little or no surviving records of plague in Sweden, but I would be curious to know why Larsson and Marklunds interpret that as that there was little plague there? Ole Benedictow's chapter on Sweden (mainly discussing the lack of evidence, except for church donations) https://books.google.no/books?id=ZtjwPOB7aMkC&pg=PA170&dq=%22On+the+eve+of+the+Black+Death,+Sweden%22&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwi__4OH65jMAhXjO5oKHYqNBOUQ6AEILzAA#v=onepage&q=%22On%20the%20eve%20of%20the%20Black%20Death%2C%20Sweden%22&f=false https://books.google.no/books?id=ZtjwPOB7aMkC&pg=PA170&dq=%2... Stockholm in 1710-1711 had no problem in being rather brutally infected, with at its peak 1500 burials per week. The Last plague in the Baltic Region from Frandsen: https://books.google.no/books?id=F3bNWrVRMb8C&pg=PA65&dq=%22The+Plague+in+Finland+And+Sweden%22&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiyvJHF65jMAhUKIJoKHd94A_UQ6AEIHDAA#v=onepage&q=%22The%20Plague%20in%20Finland%20And%20Sweden%22&f=false https://books.google.no/books?id=F3bNWrVRMb8C&pg=PA65&dq=%22...
- CapitalistCartr 10y agoMany historians now think there were about 100 million people living in the Americas when Columbus arrived and disease reduced this to 2 million over the course of 150 years. All the atrocities of the Spanish combined couldn't come close to the ravages of disease from a populace that lived in their own filth.
- golemotron 10y ago> Of note is how smallpox was used as a weapon: "You will do well to try to inoculate the Indians, by means of blankets, as well as to try every other method that can serve to extirpate this execrable race." — Jeffery Amherst Someone should find those Europeans and punish them. Or at the very least make their descendants feel guilty forever.
- agentgt 10y agoFrom what I remember reading up on it a while ago (and I'm probably wrong) a large part of the death was not intentional and was probably inevitable (like wise even for the black plague but a lesser degree.. it could have been avoided). Compare this to the Nazis or various other genocides which were highly avoidable and huge faults of humanity.
- golemotron 10y agoIt doesn't matter Europeans destroyed indigenous cultures in America through the spread of disease. We should make sure that every child in the US knows this. We should also make sure that we remind people of it whenever people mention other tragedies like the Black Death. We're very bad people. We need to remember.
- agentgt 10y agoIt is and was called imperialism and almost every nation and civilization has done it (not that it excuses it). Even optimistic Gene Roddenberry's Star Trek future it continues on and is a topic (the prime directive). What do you think happened to the neanderthals? Survival instincts are just inherently nasty but we as humans should rise above these tendencies since we have the cognitive ability to do so. I mean for god sake look how we treat and what we do to the animals that we eat. A hundred years from now it might be seen as a serious moral slip on our part. We might all be very bad people.
- golemotron 10y ago> Survival instincts are just inherently nasty but we as humans should rise above these tendencies since we have the cognitive ability to do so. Human nature is what it is. It has not changed in millennia, it's only sublimated by culture. Football is a substitute for war. Social media and Reality TV are a substitute for the 'gossip fence.' Gene Roddenberry had a transparently unrealistic model of humanity, and thank goodness. For many people it would boring beyond belief.
- deleted 10y ago[deleted]
- DiffEq 10y agoThere is a new book coming out about this focused on the Black Death in Ireland: http://irishhistorypodcast.ie/the-black-death/ http://irishhistorypodcast.ie/the-black-death/
- exit 10y agohttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Years_of_Rice_and_Salt https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Years_of_Rice_and_Salt > The novel explores how subsequent world history might have been different if the Black Death plague had killed 99% of Europe's population, instead of a third. it's an interesting effort to imagine human civilisation guided primarily by buddhism and islam, without christianity ever ascending.
- arca_vorago 10y agoOne thing to remember is that a tremendous amount of wealth was passed to the survivors, and it was actually a boon for the recovering population.
- Synaesthesia 10y agoAnother terrible catastrophe was the colonisation of India, resulting ultimately in it's economic destruction, massive famines of millions of people etc. In fact a great catastrophe the western colonisation of the rest of the world starting from about 1497 in general. It was extraordinarily brutal throughout the world. For an excellent overview of this history of European colonisation of the world see Noam Chomsky's book "Year 501, The Conquest Continues". It's available online. But the black death was obviously a major global catastrophe. In fact Europe was for centuries a most brutal place with disease, warfare, and oppression.
- knz 10y ago> In fact Europe was for centuries a most brutal place with disease, warfare, and oppression. I'm not sure that only applies to Europe...
- Synaesthesia 10y agoOf course not. Comparatively it was actually pretty bad. Worse than I thought it was, the gap between the first world and the third world was also much smaller in the past.
- Maultasche 10y agoI'll also point out that like with aftershocks with earthquakes, there were multiple smaller waves of plagues after this initial event, breaking out in various regions over subsequent centuries. It seemed to have died down after around 1700, but there were regular plague outbreaks up to that point. None were as widespread or as devastating as the initial outbreak, although that was of small comfort to those thousands that did die in later outbreaks.
- foobar2020 10y agoWhile we are on this topic I would like to recommend to all who have not seen it yet "The Seventh Seal", Ingmar Bergman's masterpiece on dealing with death and God's silence when we face it. Action is set in medieval Sweden, during the time of the Black Death plague. The opening scene: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f4yXBIigZbg https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f4yXBIigZbg