4 ms·

It's not just about the past; it is about the persistent and continual racism that has continued, unabated, for hundreds of years. It is incorrect to think the

It's not just about the past; it is about the persistent and continual racism that has continued, unabated, for hundreds of years. It is incorrect to think the mistakes made over 100 years ago are no longer connected to the realities of today. Racism is real. It exists in the United States right now – it never went away. Reparations isn't just about healing the old wounds of the past – its also about closing the gaping wounds of the present.

chrismcb 10y ago
How will reparations do that? If the problem is something going on today, then fix today's problem now yesterday's.
- labster 10y ago
  Good question. A lot of the differences between the races is not in today's problems, but in yesterday's. In particular note: the income gap is a problem, but the capital gap is even bigger. Capital is often inherited, which means that white families are still benefiting from historical slavery. By providing capital, potentially through reparations, we could offset a portion of our historical debt. Not sure it would work, but that's the theory.
  - brbsix 10y ago
    This is something you'd really want to be sure about. If the cause of said income gap is instead cultural, genetic, or something else altogether (e.g. drug war, single motherhood), reparations have the potential to make things far, far worse long term. Shielding people from reality (e.g. cause, effect, self-ownership) for a sufficient period of time is a dangerous game.
  - vixen99 10y ago
    Why focus on income gap as a problem rather than the inability to afford or enjoy (for whatever reason) a reasonable standard of living? [ Answer: it rouses emotions and is thus rhetorically useful. ] Re inherited wealth: let's be clear - there is no country in the world where slavery was not practiced at one time or another in Asia, Europe America and Africa. Incidentally it was abolished by the British who then, with difficulty, brought pressure to bear on other nations. As to inherited wealth, in the main, Marx's recommendations in the Communist Manifesto have been largely implemented for most of us (40% tax in the UK above a fairly low threshold).
  - greggman 10y ago
    Reparations or not this ep of This American Life gave me a new perspective on some of the related issues http://www.thisamericanlife.org/radio-archives/episode/512/house-rules?act=2#play http://www.thisamericanlife.org/radio-archives/episode/512/h...
deleted 10y ago
[deleted]
tbrownaw 10y ago
persistent and continual racism that has continued, unabated, for hundreds of years. "Unabated", really? So we still have separate water fountains, and things like that recent report on the Chicago Police Department are normal and expected and generally accepted as how things should be?
mcphage 10y ago
> Reparations isn't just about healing the old wounds of the past – its also about closing the gaping wounds of the present. How will reparations make people less racist?
brbsix 10y ago
To make reparations (specifically of the non-voluntary sort) to one particular group is to cause harm to another group. This should be self-evident, but we can look at practical examples (e.g. World War I reparations which harmed both sides). It is really moral or worthwhile to open new wounds (notably to entirely innocent parties) in the present in an attempt to rectify past injustice? We don't punish the children of murderers for their parent's offenses, let alone the descendants of their neighbors.
- geofft 10y ago
  > We don't punish the children of murderers for their parent's offenses, let alone the descendants of their neighbors. I'm not totally sure that's true, under your definition of "punish" (or at least of "cause harm"). If a convicted murderer writes some memoirs, there are laws that prevent them from profiting off their story, and often allow the families of victims to sue for those profits. This applies even if the murderer is personally unable to use that money (due to being in prison, being on death row, etc.) and is just trying to provide for their children. If the victims' families discover a few years later that profitable memoirs were published, I believe they can still sue to recover that money, even if it means taking money out of an innocent child's college fund.
  - brbsix 10y ago
    Here's a quote from the "Son of Sam law" Wikipedia page: In certain cases a Son of Sam law can be extended beyond the criminals themselves to include friends, neighbors, and family members of the lawbreaker who seek to profit by telling publishers and filmmakers of their relation to the criminal. In other cases, a person may not financially benefit from the sale of a story or any other mementos pertaining to the crime. It goes on to say: With the advent of the Internet and online sales, many Son of Sam laws are now targeting the sale of so-called "murderabilia". Few courts have yet issued opinions regarding the constitutionality of many of these new laws. Dumbfounded as I may be, you're clearly right on that.
    - geofft 10y ago
rabboRubble 10y ago
Ok, so reparations paid. Do you think racism will be solved? If no, are more reparation payments required? Or is this a one time payment that allows us to buy our way out of an obligation to create a racially just society now? What about racism towards those without slave ancestors? Example Chinese people. Example Irish immigrants who sold themselves into indentured servitude and were historically discriminated against. What about people with fractional African DNA? Like for example, I could test myself and be 1% of African descent, even though I'm lily white. Or what happens if you are mostly, say 7/8ths, of mixed Mexican descent but 1/8th African descent?
- iofj 10y ago
  Plus this is a very slippery slope. What about loans that your great-grandfather defaulted on ? This is a very clear-cut injustice that may be easy to prove. Already student debt gets special (and despicable) treatment in that regard. We really don't want to "make good" on historical injustices. Besides we are being very selective about historical injustices. Do we want to restore the Roman Empire too ? That certainly didn't end in a legal and just manner. The same can be said for essentially any empire. Should we lock all muslims into the one place where they spread without an army, Medina, and restore the Jewish states surrounding them ? "Justice" is just providing more legal rights for whomever screams the loudest, threatens the most violence, ... that sort of thing.

chrismcb 10y ago

How will reparations do that? If the problem is something going on today, then fix today's problem now yesterday's.

labster 10y ago
Good question. A lot of the differences between the races is not in today's problems, but in yesterday's. In particular note: the income gap is a problem, but the capital gap is even bigger. Capital is often inherited, which means that white families are still benefiting from historical slavery. By providing capital, potentially through reparations, we could offset a portion of our historical debt. Not sure it would work, but that's the theory.
- brbsix 10y ago
  This is something you'd really want to be sure about. If the cause of said income gap is instead cultural, genetic, or something else altogether (e.g. drug war, single motherhood), reparations have the potential to make things far, far worse long term. Shielding people from reality (e.g. cause, effect, self-ownership) for a sufficient period of time is a dangerous game.
- vixen99 10y ago
  Why focus on income gap as a problem rather than the inability to afford or enjoy (for whatever reason) a reasonable standard of living? [ Answer: it rouses emotions and is thus rhetorically useful. ] Re inherited wealth: let's be clear - there is no country in the world where slavery was not practiced at one time or another in Asia, Europe America and Africa. Incidentally it was abolished by the British who then, with difficulty, brought pressure to bear on other nations. As to inherited wealth, in the main, Marx's recommendations in the Communist Manifesto have been largely implemented for most of us (40% tax in the UK above a fairly low threshold).
- greggman 10y ago
  Reparations or not this ep of This American Life gave me a new perspective on some of the related issues http://www.thisamericanlife.org/radio-archives/episode/512/house-rules?act=2#play http://www.thisamericanlife.org/radio-archives/episode/512/h...

deleted 10y ago

[deleted]

tbrownaw 10y ago

persistent and continual racism that has continued, unabated, for hundreds of years. "Unabated", really? So we still have separate water fountains, and things like that recent report on the Chicago Police Department are normal and expected and generally accepted as how things should be?

mcphage 10y ago

> Reparations isn't just about healing the old wounds of the past – its also about closing the gaping wounds of the present. How will reparations make people less racist?

brbsix 10y ago

To make reparations (specifically of the non-voluntary sort) to one particular group is to cause harm to another group. This should be self-evident, but we can look at practical examples (e.g. World War I reparations which harmed both sides). It is really moral or worthwhile to open new wounds (notably to entirely innocent parties) in the present in an attempt to rectify past injustice? We don't punish the children of murderers for their parent's offenses, let alone the descendants of their neighbors.

geofft 10y ago
> We don't punish the children of murderers for their parent's offenses, let alone the descendants of their neighbors. I'm not totally sure that's true, under your definition of "punish" (or at least of "cause harm"). If a convicted murderer writes some memoirs, there are laws that prevent them from profiting off their story, and often allow the families of victims to sue for those profits. This applies even if the murderer is personally unable to use that money (due to being in prison, being on death row, etc.) and is just trying to provide for their children. If the victims' families discover a few years later that profitable memoirs were published, I believe they can still sue to recover that money, even if it means taking money out of an innocent child's college fund.
- brbsix 10y ago
  Here's a quote from the "Son of Sam law" Wikipedia page: In certain cases a Son of Sam law can be extended beyond the criminals themselves to include friends, neighbors, and family members of the lawbreaker who seek to profit by telling publishers and filmmakers of their relation to the criminal. In other cases, a person may not financially benefit from the sale of a story or any other mementos pertaining to the crime. It goes on to say: With the advent of the Internet and online sales, many Son of Sam laws are now targeting the sale of so-called "murderabilia". Few courts have yet issued opinions regarding the constitutionality of many of these new laws. Dumbfounded as I may be, you're clearly right on that.
  - geofft 10y ago

rabboRubble 10y ago

Ok, so reparations paid. Do you think racism will be solved? If no, are more reparation payments required? Or is this a one time payment that allows us to buy our way out of an obligation to create a racially just society now? What about racism towards those without slave ancestors? Example Chinese people. Example Irish immigrants who sold themselves into indentured servitude and were historically discriminated against. What about people with fractional African DNA? Like for example, I could test myself and be 1% of African descent, even though I'm lily white. Or what happens if you are mostly, say 7/8ths, of mixed Mexican descent but 1/8th African descent?

iofj 10y ago
Plus this is a very slippery slope. What about loans that your great-grandfather defaulted on ? This is a very clear-cut injustice that may be easy to prove. Already student debt gets special (and despicable) treatment in that regard. We really don't want to "make good" on historical injustices. Besides we are being very selective about historical injustices. Do we want to restore the Roman Empire too ? That certainly didn't end in a legal and just manner. The same can be said for essentially any empire. Should we lock all muslims into the one place where they spread without an army, Medina, and restore the Jewish states surrounding them ? "Justice" is just providing more legal rights for whomever screams the loudest, threatens the most violence, ... that sort of thing.