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I think you'd be hard pressed to find any of us whose ancestors didn't suffer some sort of injustice when judged by today's standards. Most of us aren't expecti

I think you'd be hard pressed to find any of us whose ancestors didn't suffer some sort of injustice when judged by today's standards. Most of us aren't expecting to get paid for things that happened over 100 years before we were born and would get laughed at if we started demanding reparations. Why is slavery in the US viewed through this special lens where we're all supposed to take the idea of compensation for great-great-great-great-grandchildren seriously?

ams6110 11y ago
Maybe people should worry more about the slavery that still exists today in many parts of the world, and less about that which happened centuries ago.
Avshalom 11y ago
To save some time: because the injustice didn't stop at anyone's great great anything. http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2014/06/the-case-for-reparations/361631/ http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2014/06/the-case...
- unstatusthequo 11y ago
  And the Russians subjected my ancestors, made them poor as shit, and made my country disappear for years. Where's my pile of Putin's money? The stipulation would have to be once paid, everyone bitching has to shut up about it forever. I'd donate to that Kickstarter.
  - Avshalom 11y ago
    Have you considered that maybe you are owed a pile of Putin money and maybe you should start agitating for that shit?
    - jholman 11y ago
      I mean, practically, it's more profitable to get on with life, and just ignore the injustice. But yeah, saying "if X is moral, and if Putin was also moral, then Putin would behave differently, and therefore X must not be moral" is a hilarious argument. I, for one, aim for a higher moral standard than "as good as Putin".
  - brbsix 11y ago
    The difference with Putin is that calling him bad names and attempting to inflame latent guilt won't provoke the desired response. Said tactics only work on people suffering from pathological altruism.
JacobJans 11y ago
It's not just about the past; it is about the persistent and continual racism that has continued, unabated, for hundreds of years. It is incorrect to think the mistakes made over 100 years ago are no longer connected to the realities of today. Racism is real. It exists in the United States right now – it never went away. Reparations isn't just about healing the old wounds of the past – its also about closing the gaping wounds of the present.
- chrismcb 11y ago
  How will reparations do that? If the problem is something going on today, then fix today's problem now yesterday's.
  - labster 11y ago
    Good question. A lot of the differences between the races is not in today's problems, but in yesterday's. In particular note: the income gap is a problem, but the capital gap is even bigger. Capital is often inherited, which means that white families are still benefiting from historical slavery. By providing capital, potentially through reparations, we could offset a portion of our historical debt. Not sure it would work, but that's the theory.
    - brbsix 11y ago
      This is something you'd really want to be sure about. If the cause of said income gap is instead cultural, genetic, or something else altogether (e.g. drug war, single motherhood), reparations have the potential to make things far, far worse long term. Shielding people from reality (e.g. cause, effect, self-ownership) for a sufficient period of time is a dangerous game.
    - vixen99 11y ago
      Why focus on income gap as a problem rather than the inability to afford or enjoy (for whatever reason) a reasonable standard of living? [ Answer: it rouses emotions and is thus rhetorically useful. ] Re inherited wealth: let's be clear - there is no country in the world where slavery was not practiced at one time or another in Asia, Europe America and Africa. Incidentally it was abolished by the British who then, with difficulty, brought pressure to bear on other nations. As to inherited wealth, in the main, Marx's recommendations in the Communist Manifesto have been largely implemented for most of us (40% tax in the UK above a fairly low threshold).
rdtsc 11y ago
> I think you'd be hard pressed to find any of us whose ancestors didn't suffer some sort of injustice when judged by today's standards. In general yes, except in this case it is a particular institution with a particular list of names of people. Not just some abstract group -- but specific 272 names. So if GU can trace what happened to those people, it seems reasonable to do something. Another interesting thing in the article was the relationship about organized religion -- Jesuits and slavery. How priests "... required their slaves to attend Mass for the sake of their salvation, but also whipped and sold some of them." It was perhaps a bit like the Declaration of Independnce (all men are created equal with inalienable Rights) vs slavery for another 100 years after it was written. I find something interesting about institutional hypocrysy. It always exists, and to some degree and can be thought of as a benchmark of sanity or health of said system.
lbebber 11y ago
American slavery (not just in the USA, slavery throughout the Americas) is a big deal, of which there are no parallels in history considering its scale and its racist character, didn't happen that long ago, and its echoes are still being felt very much today, so it should absolutely be viewed through "special lens".
- brbsix 11y ago
  A very cursory search would reveal that to be completely, utterly wrong. The Arab slave trade was at least as large (in terms of sheer number of victims), for a much greater duration, and as recent as 50-60 years ago if Wikipedia is to believed. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arab_slave_trade https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arab_slave_trade Historians estimate that between 650 and the 1960s, 10 to 18 million people were enslaved by Arab slave traders and taken from Europe, Asia and Africa across the Sahara, the Red Sea, and the western Indian Ocean. http://www.theroot.com/articles/history/2012/10/how_many_slaves_came_to_america_fact_vs_fiction.html http://www.theroot.com/articles/history/2012/10/how_many_sla... http://www.slavevoyages.org/ http://www.slavevoyages.org/ Between 1525 and 1866, in the entire history of the slave trade to the New World, according to the Trans-Atlantic Slave Trade Database, 12.5 million Africans were shipped to the New World. 10.7 million survived the dreaded Middle Passage, disembarking in North America, the Caribbean and South America.
  - iofj 11y ago
    Arab slave trade is alive and well today : "Slavery in Mali exists today, with as many as 200,000 people held in direct servitude to a master. Since 2006, a movement called Temedt has been active in Mali struggling against the persistence of slavery and the discrimination associated with ex-slaves. There were reports that in the Tuareg Rebellion of 2012, ex-slaves were recaptured by their former masters." Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slavery_in_Mali https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slavery_in_Mali And to go even more controversial : they are (today) large movements in islam that see restoration of slavery as a goal [1]. Some, famously ISIS, do it in practice too (they buy and sell humans, and are proud of it, because apparently, so did the prophet. Why leftists are advocating tolerance/justice towards a pro-slavery group in America is beyond me ...). But in many parts of Africa and the middle east there are current islamic governments supporting slavery, essentially all of the ones on the northern border of the Sahara in Africa and in the middle east, all the religious ones [2]. I read a UN report that essentially said that because of islam, slavery is spreading, today. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_views_on_slavery https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_views_on_slavery [2] http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2015/10/11/inside-the-world-of-gulf-state-slavery.html http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2015/10/11/inside-the-... or worse https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Issa_bin_Zayed_Al_Nahyan https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Issa_bin_Zayed_Al_Nahyan
randomorganism 11y ago
Very interesting to read the comments on here. Seems whenever there is any talk of slavery or any atrocity committed by western powers past or present there is always a tone of "it wasn't that bad". Whether or not you agree with that statement, the fact is the atrocities committed by other powers are just unbeatably heinous, but our atrocities? Not so bad. Honestly not going to go in depth with that argument as I'm a long-time lurker here and I've seen just how defensive people are on this forum (not to even factor in the typical defensiveness that white people in america exude the second the topic of slavery is brought up). What i will ask, as a matter of fact what i specifically made this account to ask, is why I never hear any such musings of common sense and equality of suffering when the subject of Jewish reparations for the Holocaust is brought up?[0][1] My personal opinion is reparations won't change the fact that racism is still real in America and prevalent. Reparations won't undo the fact that we as a country shipped these people across an ocean just to subject them to unmitigated atrocities - yes plural, the fact that they were slaves wasn't even 1/10th the worst thing that happened to them as some of them were actually slaves back in their own lands, it's everything that came as a consequence of what it meant to be a black slave in the United States. As a consequence, whether or not reparations are being asked for, I don't care. What i do care about is this blatant double standard that we put on show whenever our heinous activities are brought to discussion, and just using the Jewish as an example, other atrocities are simply black and white to the point where we reached peak Nazi/Hitler porn and just kept soaring. Supposedly an atrocity that was caused mostly by intentional neglect and mistreatment of an entire class of people based on their ethnicity is only completely morally repugnant if we're not the ones committing them. Just my own 0.02. Gonna go back to ignoring op's comment
- randomorganism 11y ago
  Tried to edit to post reference links. Posting them here instead [0]http://www.ihr.org/jhr/v17/v17n6p19_reparations.html http://www.ihr.org/jhr/v17/v17n6p19_reparations.html [1]http://www.jta.org/2015/10/01/news-opinion/united-states/obama-administration-earmarks-12m-for-holocaust-survivors http://www.jta.org/2015/10/01/news-opinion/united-states/oba...

ams6110 11y ago

Maybe people should worry more about the slavery that still exists today in many parts of the world, and less about that which happened centuries ago.

Avshalom 11y ago

To save some time: because the injustice didn't stop at anyone's great great anything. http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2014/06/the-case-for-reparations/361631/ http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2014/06/the-case...

unstatusthequo 11y ago
And the Russians subjected my ancestors, made them poor as shit, and made my country disappear for years. Where's my pile of Putin's money? The stipulation would have to be once paid, everyone bitching has to shut up about it forever. I'd donate to that Kickstarter.
- Avshalom 11y ago
  Have you considered that maybe you are owed a pile of Putin money and maybe you should start agitating for that shit?
  - jholman 11y ago
    I mean, practically, it's more profitable to get on with life, and just ignore the injustice. But yeah, saying "if X is moral, and if Putin was also moral, then Putin would behave differently, and therefore X must not be moral" is a hilarious argument. I, for one, aim for a higher moral standard than "as good as Putin".
- brbsix 11y ago
  The difference with Putin is that calling him bad names and attempting to inflame latent guilt won't provoke the desired response. Said tactics only work on people suffering from pathological altruism.

JacobJans 11y ago

It's not just about the past; it is about the persistent and continual racism that has continued, unabated, for hundreds of years. It is incorrect to think the mistakes made over 100 years ago are no longer connected to the realities of today. Racism is real. It exists in the United States right now – it never went away. Reparations isn't just about healing the old wounds of the past – its also about closing the gaping wounds of the present.

chrismcb 11y ago
How will reparations do that? If the problem is something going on today, then fix today's problem now yesterday's.
- labster 11y ago
  Good question. A lot of the differences between the races is not in today's problems, but in yesterday's. In particular note: the income gap is a problem, but the capital gap is even bigger. Capital is often inherited, which means that white families are still benefiting from historical slavery. By providing capital, potentially through reparations, we could offset a portion of our historical debt. Not sure it would work, but that's the theory.
  - brbsix 11y ago
    This is something you'd really want to be sure about. If the cause of said income gap is instead cultural, genetic, or something else altogether (e.g. drug war, single motherhood), reparations have the potential to make things far, far worse long term. Shielding people from reality (e.g. cause, effect, self-ownership) for a sufficient period of time is a dangerous game.
  - vixen99 11y ago
    Why focus on income gap as a problem rather than the inability to afford or enjoy (for whatever reason) a reasonable standard of living? [ Answer: it rouses emotions and is thus rhetorically useful. ] Re inherited wealth: let's be clear - there is no country in the world where slavery was not practiced at one time or another in Asia, Europe America and Africa. Incidentally it was abolished by the British who then, with difficulty, brought pressure to bear on other nations. As to inherited wealth, in the main, Marx's recommendations in the Communist Manifesto have been largely implemented for most of us (40% tax in the UK above a fairly low threshold).

rdtsc 11y ago

> I think you'd be hard pressed to find any of us whose ancestors didn't suffer some sort of injustice when judged by today's standards. In general yes, except in this case it is a particular institution with a particular list of names of people. Not just some abstract group -- but specific 272 names. So if GU can trace what happened to those people, it seems reasonable to do something. Another interesting thing in the article was the relationship about organized religion -- Jesuits and slavery. How priests "... required their slaves to attend Mass for the sake of their salvation, but also whipped and sold some of them." It was perhaps a bit like the Declaration of Independnce (all men are created equal with inalienable Rights) vs slavery for another 100 years after it was written. I find something interesting about institutional hypocrysy. It always exists, and to some degree and can be thought of as a benchmark of sanity or health of said system.

lbebber 11y ago

American slavery (not just in the USA, slavery throughout the Americas) is a big deal, of which there are no parallels in history considering its scale and its racist character, didn't happen that long ago, and its echoes are still being felt very much today, so it should absolutely be viewed through "special lens".

brbsix 11y ago
A very cursory search would reveal that to be completely, utterly wrong. The Arab slave trade was at least as large (in terms of sheer number of victims), for a much greater duration, and as recent as 50-60 years ago if Wikipedia is to believed. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arab_slave_trade https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arab_slave_trade Historians estimate that between 650 and the 1960s, 10 to 18 million people were enslaved by Arab slave traders and taken from Europe, Asia and Africa across the Sahara, the Red Sea, and the western Indian Ocean. http://www.theroot.com/articles/history/2012/10/how_many_slaves_came_to_america_fact_vs_fiction.html http://www.theroot.com/articles/history/2012/10/how_many_sla... http://www.slavevoyages.org/ http://www.slavevoyages.org/ Between 1525 and 1866, in the entire history of the slave trade to the New World, according to the Trans-Atlantic Slave Trade Database, 12.5 million Africans were shipped to the New World. 10.7 million survived the dreaded Middle Passage, disembarking in North America, the Caribbean and South America.
- iofj 11y ago
  Arab slave trade is alive and well today : "Slavery in Mali exists today, with as many as 200,000 people held in direct servitude to a master. Since 2006, a movement called Temedt has been active in Mali struggling against the persistence of slavery and the discrimination associated with ex-slaves. There were reports that in the Tuareg Rebellion of 2012, ex-slaves were recaptured by their former masters." Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slavery_in_Mali https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slavery_in_Mali And to go even more controversial : they are (today) large movements in islam that see restoration of slavery as a goal [1]. Some, famously ISIS, do it in practice too (they buy and sell humans, and are proud of it, because apparently, so did the prophet. Why leftists are advocating tolerance/justice towards a pro-slavery group in America is beyond me ...). But in many parts of Africa and the middle east there are current islamic governments supporting slavery, essentially all of the ones on the northern border of the Sahara in Africa and in the middle east, all the religious ones [2]. I read a UN report that essentially said that because of islam, slavery is spreading, today. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_views_on_slavery https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_views_on_slavery [2] http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2015/10/11/inside-the-world-of-gulf-state-slavery.html http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2015/10/11/inside-the-... or worse https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Issa_bin_Zayed_Al_Nahyan https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Issa_bin_Zayed_Al_Nahyan

randomorganism 11y ago

Very interesting to read the comments on here. Seems whenever there is any talk of slavery or any atrocity committed by western powers past or present there is always a tone of "it wasn't that bad". Whether or not you agree with that statement, the fact is the atrocities committed by other powers are just unbeatably heinous, but our atrocities? Not so bad. Honestly not going to go in depth with that argument as I'm a long-time lurker here and I've seen just how defensive people are on this forum (not to even factor in the typical defensiveness that white people in america exude the second the topic of slavery is brought up). What i will ask, as a matter of fact what i specifically made this account to ask, is why I never hear any such musings of common sense and equality of suffering when the subject of Jewish reparations for the Holocaust is brought up?[0][1] My personal opinion is reparations won't change the fact that racism is still real in America and prevalent. Reparations won't undo the fact that we as a country shipped these people across an ocean just to subject them to unmitigated atrocities - yes plural, the fact that they were slaves wasn't even 1/10th the worst thing that happened to them as some of them were actually slaves back in their own lands, it's everything that came as a consequence of what it meant to be a black slave in the United States. As a consequence, whether or not reparations are being asked for, I don't care. What i do care about is this blatant double standard that we put on show whenever our heinous activities are brought to discussion, and just using the Jewish as an example, other atrocities are simply black and white to the point where we reached peak Nazi/Hitler porn and just kept soaring. Supposedly an atrocity that was caused mostly by intentional neglect and mistreatment of an entire class of people based on their ethnicity is only completely morally repugnant if we're not the ones committing them. Just my own 0.02. Gonna go back to ignoring op's comment

randomorganism 11y ago
Tried to edit to post reference links. Posting them here instead [0]http://www.ihr.org/jhr/v17/v17n6p19_reparations.html http://www.ihr.org/jhr/v17/v17n6p19_reparations.html [1]http://www.jta.org/2015/10/01/news-opinion/united-states/obama-administration-earmarks-12m-for-holocaust-survivors http://www.jta.org/2015/10/01/news-opinion/united-states/oba...