4 ms·

Reactionary and lacking any semblance of possible reality.

mirimir 11y ago
aka visionary ;) OK, so I read too much anarcho hard SF. So it goes. If the US could do it in the late 1700s, it can be done again. Edit: OK, you're right. No doubt, it's hopeless. But I can do my "right to be left alone" thing, and that's enough.
- nickpsecurity 11y ago
  Not visionary or reactionary: just pragmatic in a bit of an extreme way. It's already happening to varying degrees and working. So, it must be a sensible option. :)
nickpsecurity 11y ago
There's companies doing it right now. On islands, too. More are going to places like Switzerland where lawful intercept might still be an issue but the implementation is way better than here. Also, it helps to operate in countries where the government doesn't see their own citizens and businesses as perpetual targets or subversives. Way less risk.
- jmspring 11y ago
  Do you have an example of a multinational firm, let's say, 1/10th the size of microsoft doing such and where they don't rely on a large amount of business from the US? I'm not being flip, but, in technology, outside of China, when it comes to things internet, most of the companies are either US based or have a US subsidiary.
  - mirimir 11y ago
    Well, over half of Apple's income already stays outside the US. Much of that has gone through Ireland, which is an island. And most of its hoard is out there somewhere.
  - nickpsecurity 11y ago
    That's kind of narrow, don't you think? Anyway, there's quite a few large European and Asian firms that do business in the U.S. that meet such criteria. The NSA's TAREX teams in conjunction with CIA and ISA try to black bag them per pre- and post-Snowden info. They wouldn't be doing that if they had access to everything, eh? ;)
  - jmspring 11y ago
    Both examples above still "do business in the US". Are there large scale examples following the original proposal of "Firms ought to refuse to do business in jurisdictions that do this authoritarian shit. Seriously. As it is, nobody in their right mind will do business with US firms where privacy matters." Sure there are assorted pre/post snowden terms, etc. But, businesses, especially multinationals, are still going to do business in the US. That was my point. I find it helpful that given the shitacular privacy laws in the US, at least Apple and Microsoft are being proactive about taking steps. That said, due to family relations, I hear a lot about european data privacy, but, well, countries like German and Britain have a pretty cozy relationship with US equivalents.
    - nickpsecurity 11y ago
      "Sure there are assorted pre/post snowden terms, etc. But, businesses, especially multinationals, are still going to do business in the US. That was my point" Oh OK. That's a lesser point that doesn't concern me as much. Our concern is if the U.S. controls the security of their products. Merely selling them in the U.S. doesn't allow for that. If anything, they'd compromise a specific user or product for U.S. targets. This is why the NSA has to hack them whereas they can just get the FBI to compel the local firms to "SIGINT enable" the products as the ECI leaks said. Far as totally outside U.S., there's Asian firms that do that. One guy that taught me a lot about HW security said his company straight-up refuses to do business in the U.S. due to patent suits and other issues. He told me there's plenty of market in Asia and Europe for firms that sell hardware or license I.P.. So, I know at least one does it.
    - mirimir 11y ago
      I meant more "HQed in the US" than "do business in the US". But remember the fights between state tax offices and Amazon. Refusing to do business is also an option.
devishard 11y ago
It's entirely possible to do. Smaller companies are doing it. Large companies like Microsoft aren't doing it because it would cost them too much money. But the propensity of large companies to prioritize money over ethics is a strong reason not to use the products of large companies. There is a growing market for hosting and cloud solutions that guarantee your data will stay in a specific country. For many companies these are a good option.

aka visionary ;) OK, so I read too much anarcho hard SF. So it goes. If the US could do it in the late 1700s, it can be done again. Edit: OK, you're right. No doubt, it's hopeless. But I can do my "right to be left alone" thing, and that's enough.

nickpsecurity 11y ago
Not visionary or reactionary: just pragmatic in a bit of an extreme way. It's already happening to varying degrees and working. So, it must be a sensible option. :)

nickpsecurity 11y ago

There's companies doing it right now. On islands, too. More are going to places like Switzerland where lawful intercept might still be an issue but the implementation is way better than here. Also, it helps to operate in countries where the government doesn't see their own citizens and businesses as perpetual targets or subversives. Way less risk.

jmspring 11y ago
Do you have an example of a multinational firm, let's say, 1/10th the size of microsoft doing such and where they don't rely on a large amount of business from the US? I'm not being flip, but, in technology, outside of China, when it comes to things internet, most of the companies are either US based or have a US subsidiary.
- mirimir 11y ago
  Well, over half of Apple's income already stays outside the US. Much of that has gone through Ireland, which is an island. And most of its hoard is out there somewhere.
- nickpsecurity 11y ago
  That's kind of narrow, don't you think? Anyway, there's quite a few large European and Asian firms that do business in the U.S. that meet such criteria. The NSA's TAREX teams in conjunction with CIA and ISA try to black bag them per pre- and post-Snowden info. They wouldn't be doing that if they had access to everything, eh? ;)
- jmspring 11y ago
  Both examples above still "do business in the US". Are there large scale examples following the original proposal of "Firms ought to refuse to do business in jurisdictions that do this authoritarian shit. Seriously. As it is, nobody in their right mind will do business with US firms where privacy matters." Sure there are assorted pre/post snowden terms, etc. But, businesses, especially multinationals, are still going to do business in the US. That was my point. I find it helpful that given the shitacular privacy laws in the US, at least Apple and Microsoft are being proactive about taking steps. That said, due to family relations, I hear a lot about european data privacy, but, well, countries like German and Britain have a pretty cozy relationship with US equivalents.
  - nickpsecurity 11y ago
    "Sure there are assorted pre/post snowden terms, etc. But, businesses, especially multinationals, are still going to do business in the US. That was my point" Oh OK. That's a lesser point that doesn't concern me as much. Our concern is if the U.S. controls the security of their products. Merely selling them in the U.S. doesn't allow for that. If anything, they'd compromise a specific user or product for U.S. targets. This is why the NSA has to hack them whereas they can just get the FBI to compel the local firms to "SIGINT enable" the products as the ECI leaks said. Far as totally outside U.S., there's Asian firms that do that. One guy that taught me a lot about HW security said his company straight-up refuses to do business in the U.S. due to patent suits and other issues. He told me there's plenty of market in Asia and Europe for firms that sell hardware or license I.P.. So, I know at least one does it.
  - mirimir 11y ago
    I meant more "HQed in the US" than "do business in the US". But remember the fights between state tax offices and Amazon. Refusing to do business is also an option.

devishard 11y ago

It's entirely possible to do. Smaller companies are doing it. Large companies like Microsoft aren't doing it because it would cost them too much money. But the propensity of large companies to prioritize money over ethics is a strong reason not to use the products of large companies. There is a growing market for hosting and cloud solutions that guarantee your data will stay in a specific country. For many companies these are a good option.