6 ms·

My personal theory that the path to becoming one of these 'red pill' people goes like this: -Naturally unsuccessful with women, because of personality / looks

by seibelj 11y ago

My personal theory that the path to becoming one of these 'red pill' people goes like this: -Naturally unsuccessful with women, because of personality / looks / etc. -Sense of entitlement, where this person "deserves" to have women desire them, specifically attractive women. -Discovers some sort of methodology that is supposed to help them get women, such as pick up artist communities. -Techniques fail to help them get women. -Warped sense of reality develops, where it isn't their own fault that they can't get women to love them, it's society's / women's / feminists / someone else's fault. -Intense hatred and fear of the opposite sex, supported by a reactionary ideology that permits their beliefs and behavior.

deleted 11y ago
[deleted]
morbidhawk 11y ago
> personal theory Yeah that's just your theory. I don't fit into any of those bullet points. My path to red pill started after being married to someone with severe depression and she could never be happy about anything. Since discovering red pill my wife is doing a lot more than just sleeping all day. Not ALL women act entitled, but geez the ones that do can seriously screw up your life if you don't take action. Just passively trying to meet her endless irrational needs never worked.
- J5892 11y ago
  Are you saying that your wife's severe depression came from a sense of entitlement? If that's the case, you absolutely fit into the second-to-last bullet point.
  - morbidhawk 11y ago
    No, the severe depression came from childhood trauma and abuse. Acting like a child all the time, however, when you're a grown adult and never doing anything responsible is entitlement.
    - kafkaesq 11y ago
      Your language is weird, though. And keeps coming back to associating you wife's "never being happy about anything" and "sleeping all day" to being childish and/or acting from a sense of entitlement.
      - morbidhawk 11y ago
        Being a victim is different than playing the victim card. It's hard for a victim to get out of bed and do things but isn't impossible. Sometimes it's hard to tell whether she has legitimate reasons or not and other times its clear as day she's taking advantage. One thing I like about the red pill and also happens to coincide with stoic philosophy is that you call things what they are rather than what society tells you they are
        mercer 11y ago
        (Please don't think I'm extrapolating all this from your comment, or applying it to you specifically. Your comment was mostly just a writing prompt of sorts.) I think your comment nicely expresses the core problem I see in the red pill 'movement', and in a whole bunch of other movements (and moreso on the internet). These 'types' of groups oversimplify or warp an aspect of reality primarily because of negative personal issues or experiences. And while that in itself is not necessarily a problem, in these particular cases it often causes real damage to real, complex people who are usually not responsible for these personal or past issues. It also 'traps' the individuals in a way of thinking that, collective, is probably much more powerful and extreme than the individual themself. The thing is, I can actually agree with 'red pillers' to a degree. I've had some really, really bad experiences with 'damaged' girls who took advantage of me, and something like the red pill could've probably helped me before and after these experiences. My life has improved when I became more assertive. But at the same I try to avoid codifying this experience or lesson into a (personal) philosophy or into a movement I interact with regularly. I try to keep the experiences and the resulting lessons small, because I've found that generalizing from negative experiences and basing world views on them can have terrible consequences. In fact, I believe it's the root of a large number of our problems. Unfortunately, the worse the experience, the more likely we are to draw lessons that are too out of proportion to these experiences. It's understandable, but dangerous. Doing this is particularly difficult for me because I'm the type of person who likes to generalize and systemize things. I have to actively and constantly remind myself that life and people are messy, chaotic things and not a pattern to be recognized and generalized (too much, or too early, anyways). Even if I'm good at it. I'm a big fan of stoicism and have become huge fan of all things zen. I see the same dangers there. There's a sharp divide between those who fled into the 'mindfulness' world because of trauma and/or burnout, and those who took it up for other reasons. The former group is often quite unpleasant and deeply unsettling to me, and has in fact played a big role in keeping me from 'discovering' meditation and whatnot. I've noticed the same with certain groups of Christians, cleaned-up drug addicts, atheists, and so on. The main difference is that in most of these movements there's a healthy mix of different people who came to be part of it for different reason. On the internet, it's not only easier to form and become part of such groups, but I wouldn't be surprised if it also attracts a disproportionate number of 'systemizing' people like myself ('spectrummy', for one).
- seibelj 11y ago
  Anyone can have an attitude of entitlement. I have observed it in both genders and in various life circumstances. Focusing on women shows your bias.
  - morbidhawk 11y ago
    I put into practice what I've learned from red pill because of my own relationship dynamic. I never said I worshipped it like it was my religion. It's not biased when it is what it is
- tdkl 11y ago
  So instead of realizing you married an incompatible person, you changed your behaviour to an extreme ? To paraphrase the "pick-up" jargon - that sounds beta.
  - morbidhawk 11y ago
    > So instead of realizing you married an incompatible person, you changed your behaviour to an extreme I found red pill 8 years into my married. I married and had 2 kids really young while going through school and being the sole-provider. I've been conditioned to do such due to my Mormon upbringing. It's recent that I've started to take control of my life instead of just doing what others tell me to do. I'm a far way off of being the Alpha that gets respect
    - tdkl 11y ago
      Those facts actually explain some of the things. If you had more experience with choosing the partner, this perhaps wouldn't happen (which would also mean you'd be more in control of your life as you said it).
    - Mz 11y ago
      As a former full time wife and mom, let me respectfully suggest that if your wife gave birth to two kids while you were going to school and the sole provider, she probably was doing more than just sleeping all day. A lot more. I am sorry for your personal problems and your marital problems. But I am not convinced that your remarks about your wife are an accurate assessment. My husband used to say similar things about me. When we were married, he had the career of his dreams and was going to college with plans to get his PhD and become a college professor. We got divorced. He seems to have given up on getting a PhD etc. It has been a lot of years. His life seems to be okay. It isn't terrible. But his ability to pursue his dreams seems like it died when his "do nothing" wife with an abusive childhood left the picture. He now cooks for his cute new wife, something he never did for me, and she is in school, but his big dreams seem to have been abandoned. I am not trying to be mean here. I sincerely hope you get your problems resolved. But I think you are underestimating the work involved in raising kids, running a household and supporting a man's career. I often slept during the day because, unlike him, the kids were waking me up at night. Best.
- Mz 11y ago
  Passively trying to meet anyone's endless irrational demands never works. It is not a gendered issue. Crazy is as crazy does.
  - deleted 11y ago
    [deleted]
reversecs 11y ago
"Discovers some sort of methodology that is supposed to help them get women, such as pick up artist communities" The red pill distinguishes itself from "pick up artist communities". A quick look over it sees that they advocate more for strengthening one's self-esteem to be independent from what women think of them. They also tend to generalize about women in ways that are not very popular, but generalizing what is perceived as negative behavior makes it much easier to deal with, understand, and move on from that behavior. In the end is just a community that supports men, and sometimes at the expense of their idea of women. I'm not really sure if its a good or bad thing. But does anybody have a duty to think about people a certain way? Surely we need to treat everybody fairly, but once that is achieved what duty does an individual have to think about a people in a certain light at all times? If that person can develop a system that works for them and makes them happy and does not infringe on the rights of others then do we encourage people to do find what works for them? Or do we train them to think about others in a way that agrees with the majority of people.
- erikpukinskis 11y ago
  > do we train them to think about others in a way that agrees with the majority of people. You can't decide without looking at the specifics of the training. Is the training useful to people and relatively harmeless? Then yes, train as many people as you want. Is it destructive? Then maybe limit the training to just the folks with that specific brand of sadism/masochism and try to limit their area of dominion to a place with good warning signs so you don't have innocent people wandering into that without having a chance to consent.
- tptacek 11y ago
  I have acquaintances who are somewhat invested in the "red pill" worldview, and I've had this conversation with them, and I think this comment oversimplifies. Yes, "red pill" thinking concentrates on confidence. But it's directed confidence: red-pillers tend to believe that confidence strategies are effective ways of generating interest from women. And while there is probably some truth to that, the red pill ideology pretty quickly drives that truth into something dark and broken, by making determinations about women being susceptible to undeserving men who prosper through deceptive confidence and status schemes.
deleted 11y ago
[deleted]
forgetsusername 11y ago
>My personal theory that the path to becoming one of these 'red pill' people goes like this: -Naturally unsuccessful with women, because of personality / looks / etc. Funny, because my personal theory about how some men become feminists starts much the same way; they actually consider it an "in" to get women.
- tptacek 11y ago
  Your personal theory is also a very convenient tactic used by some online forum denizens to dismiss concerns about gender parity.
  - forgetsusername 11y ago
    >Your personal theory is also a very convenient tactic used by some online I'm sure it is. Are you implying that's me? That's rich. Meanwhile, guys like the feminist gamer podcast dweeb are using it as a platform to creep women. Isolated incident, I'm sure. I find it hard to reconcile that the tech world has such a problem with gender parity and harassment-- my industry certianly doesn't-- and at the same time appears overwhelmed with male feminists that are oh-so-concerned about the issue? How do you explain that? Judging by the comment sections on places like HN, the tech industry should be the absolute best place on earth for women to feel safe; but it isn't. The "M'lady" and "Nice guy" memes exist for a reason. There are predatory creeps out there. You might even know a few, but apparently are looking at the wrong people.
    - nkurz 11y ago
      my industry certainly doesn't What's your industry and what do you think is different about it?
      - forgetsusername 11y ago
        >What's your industry Pharmacy. >what do you think is different about it? Do you want my non-PC-sure-to-offend-the-hive-mind-version? "Nerds". The tech industry is filled with them (obviously). And let it be known I consider myself one. Look at any thread about autism here; it will be filled to the brim with people with people who have self-diagnosed themselves with some level of autism. I suppose it's because everyone likens themselves to some sort of Rain Man. But they hardly ever consider the common negative affects of said disorders: social awkwardness. Being as how many men are awkward around women at the best of times, it's much worse when you have gawky nerds trying to achieve the same outcomes[0]. I don't really know. It's just a theory. Maybe you should ask hivemind#10232123 above me here; you know, the guy who works in an industry that, apparently, women don't want to go near for fear of harassment (despite the fact that every second guy is a feminist), lecturing a guy who works in an industry where men and women are in actual parity without the need to distribute a concrete list of "things not to say to women". [0] See 40 years of pop culture.

by seibelj 11y ago

deleted 11y ago

[deleted]

morbidhawk 11y ago

> personal theory Yeah that's just your theory. I don't fit into any of those bullet points. My path to red pill started after being married to someone with severe depression and she could never be happy about anything. Since discovering red pill my wife is doing a lot more than just sleeping all day. Not ALL women act entitled, but geez the ones that do can seriously screw up your life if you don't take action. Just passively trying to meet her endless irrational needs never worked.

J5892 11y ago
Are you saying that your wife's severe depression came from a sense of entitlement? If that's the case, you absolutely fit into the second-to-last bullet point.
- morbidhawk 11y ago
  No, the severe depression came from childhood trauma and abuse. Acting like a child all the time, however, when you're a grown adult and never doing anything responsible is entitlement.
  - kafkaesq 11y ago
    Your language is weird, though. And keeps coming back to associating you wife's "never being happy about anything" and "sleeping all day" to being childish and/or acting from a sense of entitlement.
    - morbidhawk 11y ago
      Being a victim is different than playing the victim card. It's hard for a victim to get out of bed and do things but isn't impossible. Sometimes it's hard to tell whether she has legitimate reasons or not and other times its clear as day she's taking advantage. One thing I like about the red pill and also happens to coincide with stoic philosophy is that you call things what they are rather than what society tells you they are
      - mercer 11y ago
        (Please don't think I'm extrapolating all this from your comment, or applying it to you specifically. Your comment was mostly just a writing prompt of sorts.) I think your comment nicely expresses the core problem I see in the red pill 'movement', and in a whole bunch of other movements (and moreso on the internet). These 'types' of groups oversimplify or warp an aspect of reality primarily because of negative personal issues or experiences. And while that in itself is not necessarily a problem, in these particular cases it often causes real damage to real, complex people who are usually not responsible for these personal or past issues. It also 'traps' the individuals in a way of thinking that, collective, is probably much more powerful and extreme than the individual themself. The thing is, I can actually agree with 'red pillers' to a degree. I've had some really, really bad experiences with 'damaged' girls who took advantage of me, and something like the red pill could've probably helped me before and after these experiences. My life has improved when I became more assertive. But at the same I try to avoid codifying this experience or lesson into a (personal) philosophy or into a movement I interact with regularly. I try to keep the experiences and the resulting lessons small, because I've found that generalizing from negative experiences and basing world views on them can have terrible consequences. In fact, I believe it's the root of a large number of our problems. Unfortunately, the worse the experience, the more likely we are to draw lessons that are too out of proportion to these experiences. It's understandable, but dangerous. Doing this is particularly difficult for me because I'm the type of person who likes to generalize and systemize things. I have to actively and constantly remind myself that life and people are messy, chaotic things and not a pattern to be recognized and generalized (too much, or too early, anyways). Even if I'm good at it. I'm a big fan of stoicism and have become huge fan of all things zen. I see the same dangers there. There's a sharp divide between those who fled into the 'mindfulness' world because of trauma and/or burnout, and those who took it up for other reasons. The former group is often quite unpleasant and deeply unsettling to me, and has in fact played a big role in keeping me from 'discovering' meditation and whatnot. I've noticed the same with certain groups of Christians, cleaned-up drug addicts, atheists, and so on. The main difference is that in most of these movements there's a healthy mix of different people who came to be part of it for different reason. On the internet, it's not only easier to form and become part of such groups, but I wouldn't be surprised if it also attracts a disproportionate number of 'systemizing' people like myself ('spectrummy', for one).
seibelj 11y ago
Anyone can have an attitude of entitlement. I have observed it in both genders and in various life circumstances. Focusing on women shows your bias.
- morbidhawk 11y ago
  I put into practice what I've learned from red pill because of my own relationship dynamic. I never said I worshipped it like it was my religion. It's not biased when it is what it is
tdkl 11y ago
So instead of realizing you married an incompatible person, you changed your behaviour to an extreme ? To paraphrase the "pick-up" jargon - that sounds beta.
- morbidhawk 11y ago
  > So instead of realizing you married an incompatible person, you changed your behaviour to an extreme I found red pill 8 years into my married. I married and had 2 kids really young while going through school and being the sole-provider. I've been conditioned to do such due to my Mormon upbringing. It's recent that I've started to take control of my life instead of just doing what others tell me to do. I'm a far way off of being the Alpha that gets respect
  - tdkl 11y ago
    Those facts actually explain some of the things. If you had more experience with choosing the partner, this perhaps wouldn't happen (which would also mean you'd be more in control of your life as you said it).
  - Mz 11y ago
    As a former full time wife and mom, let me respectfully suggest that if your wife gave birth to two kids while you were going to school and the sole provider, she probably was doing more than just sleeping all day. A lot more. I am sorry for your personal problems and your marital problems. But I am not convinced that your remarks about your wife are an accurate assessment. My husband used to say similar things about me. When we were married, he had the career of his dreams and was going to college with plans to get his PhD and become a college professor. We got divorced. He seems to have given up on getting a PhD etc. It has been a lot of years. His life seems to be okay. It isn't terrible. But his ability to pursue his dreams seems like it died when his "do nothing" wife with an abusive childhood left the picture. He now cooks for his cute new wife, something he never did for me, and she is in school, but his big dreams seem to have been abandoned. I am not trying to be mean here. I sincerely hope you get your problems resolved. But I think you are underestimating the work involved in raising kids, running a household and supporting a man's career. I often slept during the day because, unlike him, the kids were waking me up at night. Best.
Mz 11y ago
Passively trying to meet anyone's endless irrational demands never works. It is not a gendered issue. Crazy is as crazy does.
- deleted 11y ago
  [deleted]

reversecs 11y ago

"Discovers some sort of methodology that is supposed to help them get women, such as pick up artist communities" The red pill distinguishes itself from "pick up artist communities". A quick look over it sees that they advocate more for strengthening one's self-esteem to be independent from what women think of them. They also tend to generalize about women in ways that are not very popular, but generalizing what is perceived as negative behavior makes it much easier to deal with, understand, and move on from that behavior. In the end is just a community that supports men, and sometimes at the expense of their idea of women. I'm not really sure if its a good or bad thing. But does anybody have a duty to think about people a certain way? Surely we need to treat everybody fairly, but once that is achieved what duty does an individual have to think about a people in a certain light at all times? If that person can develop a system that works for them and makes them happy and does not infringe on the rights of others then do we encourage people to do find what works for them? Or do we train them to think about others in a way that agrees with the majority of people.

erikpukinskis 11y ago
> do we train them to think about others in a way that agrees with the majority of people. You can't decide without looking at the specifics of the training. Is the training useful to people and relatively harmeless? Then yes, train as many people as you want. Is it destructive? Then maybe limit the training to just the folks with that specific brand of sadism/masochism and try to limit their area of dominion to a place with good warning signs so you don't have innocent people wandering into that without having a chance to consent.
tptacek 11y ago
I have acquaintances who are somewhat invested in the "red pill" worldview, and I've had this conversation with them, and I think this comment oversimplifies. Yes, "red pill" thinking concentrates on confidence. But it's directed confidence: red-pillers tend to believe that confidence strategies are effective ways of generating interest from women. And while there is probably some truth to that, the red pill ideology pretty quickly drives that truth into something dark and broken, by making determinations about women being susceptible to undeserving men who prosper through deceptive confidence and status schemes.

deleted 11y ago

[deleted]

forgetsusername 11y ago

>My personal theory that the path to becoming one of these 'red pill' people goes like this: -Naturally unsuccessful with women, because of personality / looks / etc. Funny, because my personal theory about how some men become feminists starts much the same way; they actually consider it an "in" to get women.

tptacek 11y ago
Your personal theory is also a very convenient tactic used by some online forum denizens to dismiss concerns about gender parity.
- forgetsusername 11y ago
  >Your personal theory is also a very convenient tactic used by some online I'm sure it is. Are you implying that's me? That's rich. Meanwhile, guys like the feminist gamer podcast dweeb are using it as a platform to creep women. Isolated incident, I'm sure. I find it hard to reconcile that the tech world has such a problem with gender parity and harassment-- my industry certianly doesn't-- and at the same time appears overwhelmed with male feminists that are oh-so-concerned about the issue? How do you explain that? Judging by the comment sections on places like HN, the tech industry should be the absolute best place on earth for women to feel safe; but it isn't. The "M'lady" and "Nice guy" memes exist for a reason. There are predatory creeps out there. You might even know a few, but apparently are looking at the wrong people.
  - nkurz 11y ago
    my industry certainly doesn't What's your industry and what do you think is different about it?
    - forgetsusername 11y ago
      >What's your industry Pharmacy. >what do you think is different about it? Do you want my non-PC-sure-to-offend-the-hive-mind-version? "Nerds". The tech industry is filled with them (obviously). And let it be known I consider myself one. Look at any thread about autism here; it will be filled to the brim with people with people who have self-diagnosed themselves with some level of autism. I suppose it's because everyone likens themselves to some sort of Rain Man. But they hardly ever consider the common negative affects of said disorders: social awkwardness. Being as how many men are awkward around women at the best of times, it's much worse when you have gawky nerds trying to achieve the same outcomes[0]. I don't really know. It's just a theory. Maybe you should ask hivemind#10232123 above me here; you know, the guy who works in an industry that, apparently, women don't want to go near for fear of harassment (despite the fact that every second guy is a feminist), lecturing a guy who works in an industry where men and women are in actual parity without the need to distribute a concrete list of "things not to say to women". [0] See 40 years of pop culture.