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>> "It is the same problem the last generation had, in large part, with the public schooling Microsoft monoculture. Kids grew up on Windows 95 and Office and ar

>> "It is the same problem the last generation had, in large part, with the public schooling Microsoft monoculture. Kids grew up on Windows 95 and Office and are now indoctrinated into Microsoft tooling, probably for life, as loyal customers. A very valuable investment on Microsoft's part to capture the computer knowledge of a large portion of a generation." I don't think this is as big of an issue as you think. I would be part of that generation. Almost everyone I know (and I mean regular people, I don't have many tech nerd friends) has switched to OS X in work and personal life. A few are on Chromebooks too. Most use a mixture of MS Office (when required for work/college) and Google Docs. So although I agree that there was an MS monoculture when growing up through the 90's/00's I disagree that has led to lifelong loyal custom.

sjm-lbm 11y ago
As an alternative point of view, I've always heard that HP calculators were killed by TI giving free calculators to schools - which lead to an entire generation that had no desire to learn RPN, even if it has some serious advantages in a lot of areas. The counterexamples you provide (OSX and Chromebooks) follow basically the same UI paradigms as the Windows machines they replaced (even if some of those might have been copied from earlier Macs). There still may be less overall diversity in the computers we use, even if there are now a number if different logos on the box.
- jcrawfordor 11y ago
  I don't think HP's RPN calculators were ever in competition with TI. The RPN calculators like the 12C are marketed to finance professionals, and TI has nothing like them. The HP graphing calculators like the 50g are infix (although there is a pretty good RPN app available). Edit: I do see that HP made graphing calculators with native RPN in the late '80s, so perhaps they were pushing these for academic markets, although today they seem to be the provence of surveyors. Random aside: I first learned RPN from my father, a budget analyst, and have used it ever since. RealCalc is an Android calculator app with an excellent RPN mode, if you're curious.
  - DigitalJack 11y ago
    The 50g is infix? When did HP switch away from RPN? Oh, it's just an option now. I've had my 48g since college in the late 90s, and now use a 48g emulator on my phone.
    - apricot 11y ago
      HP hasn't been making calculators for years. They buy calculators from some Taiwanese maker and put their logo on them.
  - swiley 11y ago
    I have an hp50g and it kind of sucks in infix mode compared to RPN mode IMO. Everything is hidden behind layers and layers of menus sort of like the TI calculators (which is the point I guess?)
- todd8 11y ago
  There is this mystic and frankly mythology that HP's RPN is a superior entry method for arithmetic. It's not. I knew RPN from my interest in math before calculators were invented, so I liked HP's RPN. However the direct correspondence between written math and the way it is expressed on a TI calculator is a huge advantage. I still have an HP RPN calculator. I liked its physical shape and size. I like the shape of its buttons. I likes the quality and feel. However, my daughter's TI calculator with a high resolution color screen (for a calculator) that graphs functions and understands calculus is so much more capable, and it supports parentheses with a standard order of operations so it is easier to go from a problem or equation description and entry into the calculator. Before Python, I ordinarily used bc (a Unix command that acted as a basic calculator) for simple calculator calculations at my desk. bc was much more popular that the other Unix calculator dc which used RPN. Now I just use python's REPL. I only use a calculator if I'm away from a real computer (which is rare since I carry a smart phone).
  - iNate2000 11y ago
    RPN is a better way to think about calculating or computing. It's more cumbersome for a single arithmetic operation, but when you're chaining operations together the stack is very powerful. It's a lot less abstracted from the way the computer works.
Razengan 11y ago
Same here. Born into a Sinclair Spectrum and Commodore 64 household, grew up on PC/DOS and spent the majority of my life on Windows, deep inside the Microsoft galaxy, but now I've settled into Macs and OS X. I think games used to be the big differentiator for many people, more so than office software, but now the gap is decreasing rapidly on all fronts. Apple needs to revisit the Mac mini as a low-cost entry into their ecosystem and make it an attractive PC in its own right as well. I know they're going to be adamant about GPU upgradability, but they should at least promote the Thunderbolt-based external GPUs and help them be a viable solution.
- scholia 11y ago
  Sure, because it's obviously better to use closed, proprietary hardware from a single source than one that's not just open to global competition but lets you build PCs yourself....
  - Razengan 11y ago
    Like I said, I was born in an era where there were many "closed" proprietary platforms, like the Commodore 64. It's not necessarily bad, it's just a different philosophy; some prefer computers to be appliances, like their TV or refrigerator, that "just work." Others prefer computers to be DIY-servicable machines, like cars, that require active and regular maintenance but can be improved if one is so inclined. Just because all the "appliance computer" manufacturers almost went out of business going into the 1990s, doesn't mean that philosophy failed, and the recent resurgence of Macs has proven as much. I suspect in an alternate universe/timeline with slightly different twists of fate, the IBM PC has died instead and closed proprietary hardware is the dominant paradigm.
    - scholia 11y ago
      > It's not necessarily bad It is necessarily bad if you make yourself (or, more important) your business totally dependent on somebody who is a monopoly supplier. > doesn't mean that philosophy failed, and the recent resurgence of Macs has proven as much. I think all the proprietary systems failed, and there were dozens if not hundreds of them. Apple was the only significant survivor, mainly for pseudo-religious reasons. The only areas where proprietary systems survived are in mainframes (perpetuation of IBM monopoly) and in games consoles (where hardware can be sold at a loss). If the IBM PC had died, the world of CP/M would have continued.... > the recent resurgence of Macs has proven as much Not really. The recent resurgence is mainly due to the fact that its lack of serious and/or business software is not the barrier it was when (a) most people can do most things online and (b) it has Unix underneath.

sjm-lbm 11y ago

As an alternative point of view, I've always heard that HP calculators were killed by TI giving free calculators to schools - which lead to an entire generation that had no desire to learn RPN, even if it has some serious advantages in a lot of areas. The counterexamples you provide (OSX and Chromebooks) follow basically the same UI paradigms as the Windows machines they replaced (even if some of those might have been copied from earlier Macs). There still may be less overall diversity in the computers we use, even if there are now a number if different logos on the box.

jcrawfordor 11y ago
I don't think HP's RPN calculators were ever in competition with TI. The RPN calculators like the 12C are marketed to finance professionals, and TI has nothing like them. The HP graphing calculators like the 50g are infix (although there is a pretty good RPN app available). Edit: I do see that HP made graphing calculators with native RPN in the late '80s, so perhaps they were pushing these for academic markets, although today they seem to be the provence of surveyors. Random aside: I first learned RPN from my father, a budget analyst, and have used it ever since. RealCalc is an Android calculator app with an excellent RPN mode, if you're curious.
- DigitalJack 11y ago
  The 50g is infix? When did HP switch away from RPN? Oh, it's just an option now. I've had my 48g since college in the late 90s, and now use a 48g emulator on my phone.
  - apricot 11y ago
    HP hasn't been making calculators for years. They buy calculators from some Taiwanese maker and put their logo on them.
- swiley 11y ago
  I have an hp50g and it kind of sucks in infix mode compared to RPN mode IMO. Everything is hidden behind layers and layers of menus sort of like the TI calculators (which is the point I guess?)
todd8 11y ago
There is this mystic and frankly mythology that HP's RPN is a superior entry method for arithmetic. It's not. I knew RPN from my interest in math before calculators were invented, so I liked HP's RPN. However the direct correspondence between written math and the way it is expressed on a TI calculator is a huge advantage. I still have an HP RPN calculator. I liked its physical shape and size. I like the shape of its buttons. I likes the quality and feel. However, my daughter's TI calculator with a high resolution color screen (for a calculator) that graphs functions and understands calculus is so much more capable, and it supports parentheses with a standard order of operations so it is easier to go from a problem or equation description and entry into the calculator. Before Python, I ordinarily used bc (a Unix command that acted as a basic calculator) for simple calculator calculations at my desk. bc was much more popular that the other Unix calculator dc which used RPN. Now I just use python's REPL. I only use a calculator if I'm away from a real computer (which is rare since I carry a smart phone).
- iNate2000 11y ago
  RPN is a better way to think about calculating or computing. It's more cumbersome for a single arithmetic operation, but when you're chaining operations together the stack is very powerful. It's a lot less abstracted from the way the computer works.

Razengan 11y ago

Same here. Born into a Sinclair Spectrum and Commodore 64 household, grew up on PC/DOS and spent the majority of my life on Windows, deep inside the Microsoft galaxy, but now I've settled into Macs and OS X. I think games used to be the big differentiator for many people, more so than office software, but now the gap is decreasing rapidly on all fronts. Apple needs to revisit the Mac mini as a low-cost entry into their ecosystem and make it an attractive PC in its own right as well. I know they're going to be adamant about GPU upgradability, but they should at least promote the Thunderbolt-based external GPUs and help them be a viable solution.

scholia 11y ago
Sure, because it's obviously better to use closed, proprietary hardware from a single source than one that's not just open to global competition but lets you build PCs yourself....
- Razengan 11y ago
  Like I said, I was born in an era where there were many "closed" proprietary platforms, like the Commodore 64. It's not necessarily bad, it's just a different philosophy; some prefer computers to be appliances, like their TV or refrigerator, that "just work." Others prefer computers to be DIY-servicable machines, like cars, that require active and regular maintenance but can be improved if one is so inclined. Just because all the "appliance computer" manufacturers almost went out of business going into the 1990s, doesn't mean that philosophy failed, and the recent resurgence of Macs has proven as much. I suspect in an alternate universe/timeline with slightly different twists of fate, the IBM PC has died instead and closed proprietary hardware is the dominant paradigm.
  - scholia 11y ago
    > It's not necessarily bad It is necessarily bad if you make yourself (or, more important) your business totally dependent on somebody who is a monopoly supplier. > doesn't mean that philosophy failed, and the recent resurgence of Macs has proven as much. I think all the proprietary systems failed, and there were dozens if not hundreds of them. Apple was the only significant survivor, mainly for pseudo-religious reasons. The only areas where proprietary systems survived are in mainframes (perpetuation of IBM monopoly) and in games consoles (where hardware can be sold at a loss). If the IBM PC had died, the world of CP/M would have continued.... > the recent resurgence of Macs has proven as much Not really. The recent resurgence is mainly due to the fact that its lack of serious and/or business software is not the barrier it was when (a) most people can do most things online and (b) it has Unix underneath.