6 ms·

I mean, the main issue is that Germany even had a law allowing someone to be punished for this kind of speech. Merkel can't (or won't) let Erdogan get the chanc

by zymhan 11y ago

I mean, the main issue is that Germany even had a law allowing someone to be punished for this kind of speech. Merkel can't (or won't) let Erdogan get the chance to point out even the slightest hypocrisy when it comes to enforcing laws. If she gives him an inch by not enforcing this stupid one, he can make a mockery of the west when they say anything about the journalistic and civil rights abuses committed by his administration. Not that they're doing even close to a good job of that right now.

fahrradflucht 11y ago
That law is a relict of the time before WW1 when Germany had an emperor. It just got adapted to the democratic system, so that it covers every head of a state. Everybody just forgot about it and it never got used since decades.
- hussong 11y ago
  It was used a couple times in recent times: Chomeini, the Pope, and others.
coldtea 11y ago
>I mean, the main issue is that Germany even had a law allowing someone to be punished for this kind of speech. Calling the guy a goat fucker? In the US, with the PC sensitivity, you can go to jail for far less...
- icebraining 11y ago
  Care to share some examples?
  - coldtea 11y ago
    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3464628/Woman-35-faces-two-years-prison-Facebook-post-calling-former-friend-slut-coke-head-phone-number-warning-STDs.html http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3464628/Woman-35-fac... http://www.bostonmagazine.com/news/blog/2013/05/23/a-methuen-teens-rap-lyrics-have-kept-him-in-jail-for-three-weeks/ http://www.bostonmagazine.com/news/blog/2013/05/23/a-methuen... http://www.businessinsider.com/teen-justin-carter-faces-trial-and-jail-for-facebook-comment-2013-7 http://www.businessinsider.com/teen-justin-carter-faces-tria... http://www.fox5dc.com/news/local-news/15763074-story http://www.fox5dc.com/news/local-news/15763074-story http://www.wdrb.com/story/30881928/judge-olu-stevens-gives-man-60-days-in-jail-for-using-racial-slur-after-hearing http://www.wdrb.com/story/30881928/judge-olu-stevens-gives-m... http://thefreethoughtproject.com/man-wins-35000-arrested-calling-cops-racist-departments-facebook-page/ http://thefreethoughtproject.com/man-wins-35000-arrested-cal...
    - icebraining 11y ago
      I assumed that by "go to jail" you meant actually be convicted. Yes, of course you can get arrested; that doesn't mean it's actually illegal, and we were talking about the laws, not police attitude.
      - jlarocco 11y ago
        Did you even read the headlines? One guy spent an extra 2 months in prison. What else could be meant by "go to jail"??
        icebraining 11y ago
        In a courtroom, against the judge; not a particular great example, in my opinion.
        troisx 11y ago
        Why isn't that a good example? It shows in the United States there are people that can arbitrarily add months to your jail sentence for insulting them, or simply send you to jail if you happen to do it while being in the same room they're in.
        cbd1984 11y ago
        > Why isn't that a good example? Because we allow judges to hand down sentences in order to maintain the decorum of the courtroom. > It shows in the United States there are people that can arbitrarily add months to your jail sentence for insulting them, or simply send you to jail if you happen to do it while being in the same room they're in. Not specific people, specific officers of the court who are performing the duties which pertain to being such. You could insult a judge outside of a courtroom all you want and they wouldn't be able to do any more about it than any other private person. Even less, actually, given that the judge is a "public official" under the law and, therefore, the Sullivan "actual malice" standard applies, which makes it substantially more difficult for someone to prove defamation. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Actual_malice https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Actual_malice
- schrodinger 11y ago
  You'd never go to jail for that here.
- barsonme 11y ago
  Surely I won't be jailed for calling anybody -- even our president -- a goat fucker. Perhaps we may (regrettably) go down that road someday and perhaps there are instances of police overstepping their bounds to regulate "proper" speech, but I'd be willing to bet* my next pay check that being arrested for calling somebody a goat fucker would not hold up in court. * - OK, not my whole check but like $5
  - bostonpete 11y ago
    > Surely I won't be jailed for calling anybody -- even our president -- a goat fucker. If you called a judge a "goat fucker" in their court room, I suspect you would be in some hot water. One could argue there's not a huge leap between rules/laws requiring respectful behavior towards judges in a court room and a law requiring respectful behavior towards world leaders... Edit: Not sure why I'm being downvoted -- I'm not defending the German law, just pointing out that it's not that different from contempt-of-court punishments in the US.
    - kirykl 11y ago
      In context of US court it might fail the Miller test https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miller_v._California https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miller_v._California
      - newjersey 11y ago
        In line with Hustler magazine v Falwell, a reasonable person would not think Barack Obama actually does that. Now, in an unfortunate turn of events should Cruz become POTUS I don't know if such a statement would be seen differently because I'd believe that he does do that.
    - troisx 11y ago
      I agree. People in the United States have gone to jail for insulting someone if that someone happens to be a judge, but for some reason everyone is up in arms over a world leader doing the same thing. I think it's ridiculous that I have to sit or stand or call someone "your honor" just because it's a guy wearing a robe that's involved. Any US citizen that thinks what Merkel is doing is wrong should take a second look at their own free speech limitations. Here's a girl in the United States who had a judge raise her bail just because she said "adios" instead of "bye", and then put her in jail for a month for saying "fuck you": https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0rrRGhvpEjo https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0rrRGhvpEjo
- cbd1984 11y ago
  Obviously incorrect, and I struggle to see why you'd even say it. Everyone knows this is wrong.
  - coldtea 11y ago
    See examples above.
    - epimetheus 11y ago
      Calling somebody a "goat fucker" is totally different than almost all of these. > http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3464628/Woman-35-fac.. http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3464628/Woman-35-fac.... This is the closest to this. Except that she posted a phone number which caused the victim to be harassed by a whole lot of other people. She wasn't arrested for calling her names, she was arrested and possibly charged because of this fact alone. > http://www.bostonmagazine.com/news/blog/2013/05/23/a-methuen.. http://www.bostonmagazine.com/news/blog/2013/05/23/a-methuen.... > http://www.businessinsider.com/teen-justin-carter-faces-tria.. http://www.businessinsider.com/teen-justin-carter-faces-tria.... > http://www.fox5dc.com/news/local-news/15763074-story http://www.fox5dc.com/news/local-news/15763074-story > http://www.wdrb.com/story/30881928/judge-olu-stevens-gives-m.. http://www.wdrb.com/story/30881928/judge-olu-stevens-gives-m.... > http://thefreethoughtproject.com/man-wins-35000-arrested-cal.. http://thefreethoughtproject.com/man-wins-35000-arrested-cal.... All of these others appear to be threatening messages, which, while somewhat controversial, are different animals than a simple name calling/satire post. Some would say it'd be negligent not to investigate and/or charge them with this if said action threatened actually came about. The other is a comment made to a judge. They were arrested for contempt of court. This is entirely different, because only judges get to make this call in the US. Lots of people probably say similar statements on Facebook about POTUS, I've seen people say it without coming out and saying it but they weren't afraid of the law in this case. The last case was acquitted, shown to NOT be legally arrested. Kind of disproves your claim, or at least offers contrary evidence.
- simcup 11y ago
  technically he didn't call him a goat fucker, he said calling him a goatfucker is illegal. which it is, wether or not the one being accused of being a goatfucker is a leader of a country or not. it's called "beleidigung" and can be prosecuted under http://dejure.org/gesetze/StGB/185.html http://dejure.org/gesetze/StGB/185.html as long as the recipient (or his/her commander in millitary or <supervisor> in the church) goes to the authorities and delclares that it should be prosecuted ("strafantrag"). i go dakor with the (currently) most upvoted post it's smart from mutti (merkel) to "allow" it, because of diplomatic relations, when in fact she doesn't have a word to say in that. she can allow or forbid everything she wants, but as she is part of legislature and executive, ?judicative? can do what they have to and don't give a shit what mutti says
  - deleted 11y ago
    [deleted]
  - onnoonno 11y ago
    I do not know why this is downvoted. It is correct. There is a very important context to the 'he called him a goat fucker': The - admittedly very crude - 'poem' he made is embedded in the context of basically explaining what the German law is about, and what you can not say. There is also another part of history: Erdogan complained about another, earlier satire show on German TV. Boehmermann was referencing this and the earlier attempts of censorship by Erdogan, and basically said 'look, we could call you this, but we didn't, we just clearly expressed our opinions and this is our freedom of expression here in Germany'.
- duaneb 11y ago
  > In the US, with the PC sensitivity, you can go to jail for far less... PC sensitivity has nothing to do with legal rights. This is the country that allows protesting soldier's funerals with "god hates faggots"—one of the least pc actions I've ever witnessed—and only restricts the distance at which the protest can take place. Also, Obama and Erdogan both fuck goats all day long. This might land me in jail in Turkey, but I'm gonna guess most people reading this post (including Obama, if he didn't have better things to do) would roll their eyes and move on. There are libel laws that might provide some limited personal protection, but this would be civil court and not criminal court.
- oxide 11y ago
  no, you can't. PC bullies are nothing more than just that. impotent bullies. they have no power and have no law behind them. if I want to call someone a goat fucker, be it leader of a country or the guy next door, I can do so without fear of prosecution.

by zymhan 11y ago

fahrradflucht 11y ago

That law is a relict of the time before WW1 when Germany had an emperor. It just got adapted to the democratic system, so that it covers every head of a state. Everybody just forgot about it and it never got used since decades.

hussong 11y ago
It was used a couple times in recent times: Chomeini, the Pope, and others.

coldtea 11y ago

>I mean, the main issue is that Germany even had a law allowing someone to be punished for this kind of speech. Calling the guy a goat fucker? In the US, with the PC sensitivity, you can go to jail for far less...

icebraining 11y ago
Care to share some examples?
- coldtea 11y ago
  http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3464628/Woman-35-faces-two-years-prison-Facebook-post-calling-former-friend-slut-coke-head-phone-number-warning-STDs.html http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3464628/Woman-35-fac... http://www.bostonmagazine.com/news/blog/2013/05/23/a-methuen-teens-rap-lyrics-have-kept-him-in-jail-for-three-weeks/ http://www.bostonmagazine.com/news/blog/2013/05/23/a-methuen... http://www.businessinsider.com/teen-justin-carter-faces-trial-and-jail-for-facebook-comment-2013-7 http://www.businessinsider.com/teen-justin-carter-faces-tria... http://www.fox5dc.com/news/local-news/15763074-story http://www.fox5dc.com/news/local-news/15763074-story http://www.wdrb.com/story/30881928/judge-olu-stevens-gives-man-60-days-in-jail-for-using-racial-slur-after-hearing http://www.wdrb.com/story/30881928/judge-olu-stevens-gives-m... http://thefreethoughtproject.com/man-wins-35000-arrested-calling-cops-racist-departments-facebook-page/ http://thefreethoughtproject.com/man-wins-35000-arrested-cal...
  - icebraining 11y ago
    I assumed that by "go to jail" you meant actually be convicted. Yes, of course you can get arrested; that doesn't mean it's actually illegal, and we were talking about the laws, not police attitude.
    - jlarocco 11y ago
      Did you even read the headlines? One guy spent an extra 2 months in prison. What else could be meant by "go to jail"??
      - icebraining 11y ago
        In a courtroom, against the judge; not a particular great example, in my opinion.
        troisx 11y ago
        Why isn't that a good example? It shows in the United States there are people that can arbitrarily add months to your jail sentence for insulting them, or simply send you to jail if you happen to do it while being in the same room they're in.
        cbd1984 11y ago
        > Why isn't that a good example? Because we allow judges to hand down sentences in order to maintain the decorum of the courtroom. > It shows in the United States there are people that can arbitrarily add months to your jail sentence for insulting them, or simply send you to jail if you happen to do it while being in the same room they're in. Not specific people, specific officers of the court who are performing the duties which pertain to being such. You could insult a judge outside of a courtroom all you want and they wouldn't be able to do any more about it than any other private person. Even less, actually, given that the judge is a "public official" under the law and, therefore, the Sullivan "actual malice" standard applies, which makes it substantially more difficult for someone to prove defamation. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Actual_malice https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Actual_malice
schrodinger 11y ago
You'd never go to jail for that here.
barsonme 11y ago
Surely I won't be jailed for calling anybody -- even our president -- a goat fucker. Perhaps we may (regrettably) go down that road someday and perhaps there are instances of police overstepping their bounds to regulate "proper" speech, but I'd be willing to bet* my next pay check that being arrested for calling somebody a goat fucker would not hold up in court. * - OK, not my whole check but like $5
- bostonpete 11y ago
  > Surely I won't be jailed for calling anybody -- even our president -- a goat fucker. If you called a judge a "goat fucker" in their court room, I suspect you would be in some hot water. One could argue there's not a huge leap between rules/laws requiring respectful behavior towards judges in a court room and a law requiring respectful behavior towards world leaders... Edit: Not sure why I'm being downvoted -- I'm not defending the German law, just pointing out that it's not that different from contempt-of-court punishments in the US.
  - kirykl 11y ago
    In context of US court it might fail the Miller test https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miller_v._California https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miller_v._California
    - newjersey 11y ago
      In line with Hustler magazine v Falwell, a reasonable person would not think Barack Obama actually does that. Now, in an unfortunate turn of events should Cruz become POTUS I don't know if such a statement would be seen differently because I'd believe that he does do that.
  - troisx 11y ago
    I agree. People in the United States have gone to jail for insulting someone if that someone happens to be a judge, but for some reason everyone is up in arms over a world leader doing the same thing. I think it's ridiculous that I have to sit or stand or call someone "your honor" just because it's a guy wearing a robe that's involved. Any US citizen that thinks what Merkel is doing is wrong should take a second look at their own free speech limitations. Here's a girl in the United States who had a judge raise her bail just because she said "adios" instead of "bye", and then put her in jail for a month for saying "fuck you": https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0rrRGhvpEjo https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0rrRGhvpEjo
cbd1984 11y ago
Obviously incorrect, and I struggle to see why you'd even say it. Everyone knows this is wrong.
- coldtea 11y ago
  See examples above.
  - epimetheus 11y ago
    Calling somebody a "goat fucker" is totally different than almost all of these. > http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3464628/Woman-35-fac.. http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3464628/Woman-35-fac.... This is the closest to this. Except that she posted a phone number which caused the victim to be harassed by a whole lot of other people. She wasn't arrested for calling her names, she was arrested and possibly charged because of this fact alone. > http://www.bostonmagazine.com/news/blog/2013/05/23/a-methuen.. http://www.bostonmagazine.com/news/blog/2013/05/23/a-methuen.... > http://www.businessinsider.com/teen-justin-carter-faces-tria.. http://www.businessinsider.com/teen-justin-carter-faces-tria.... > http://www.fox5dc.com/news/local-news/15763074-story http://www.fox5dc.com/news/local-news/15763074-story > http://www.wdrb.com/story/30881928/judge-olu-stevens-gives-m.. http://www.wdrb.com/story/30881928/judge-olu-stevens-gives-m.... > http://thefreethoughtproject.com/man-wins-35000-arrested-cal.. http://thefreethoughtproject.com/man-wins-35000-arrested-cal.... All of these others appear to be threatening messages, which, while somewhat controversial, are different animals than a simple name calling/satire post. Some would say it'd be negligent not to investigate and/or charge them with this if said action threatened actually came about. The other is a comment made to a judge. They were arrested for contempt of court. This is entirely different, because only judges get to make this call in the US. Lots of people probably say similar statements on Facebook about POTUS, I've seen people say it without coming out and saying it but they weren't afraid of the law in this case. The last case was acquitted, shown to NOT be legally arrested. Kind of disproves your claim, or at least offers contrary evidence.
simcup 11y ago
technically he didn't call him a goat fucker, he said calling him a goatfucker is illegal. which it is, wether or not the one being accused of being a goatfucker is a leader of a country or not. it's called "beleidigung" and can be prosecuted under http://dejure.org/gesetze/StGB/185.html http://dejure.org/gesetze/StGB/185.html as long as the recipient (or his/her commander in millitary or <supervisor> in the church) goes to the authorities and delclares that it should be prosecuted ("strafantrag"). i go dakor with the (currently) most upvoted post it's smart from mutti (merkel) to "allow" it, because of diplomatic relations, when in fact she doesn't have a word to say in that. she can allow or forbid everything she wants, but as she is part of legislature and executive, ?judicative? can do what they have to and don't give a shit what mutti says
- deleted 11y ago
  [deleted]
- onnoonno 11y ago
  I do not know why this is downvoted. It is correct. There is a very important context to the 'he called him a goat fucker': The - admittedly very crude - 'poem' he made is embedded in the context of basically explaining what the German law is about, and what you can not say. There is also another part of history: Erdogan complained about another, earlier satire show on German TV. Boehmermann was referencing this and the earlier attempts of censorship by Erdogan, and basically said 'look, we could call you this, but we didn't, we just clearly expressed our opinions and this is our freedom of expression here in Germany'.
duaneb 11y ago
> In the US, with the PC sensitivity, you can go to jail for far less... PC sensitivity has nothing to do with legal rights. This is the country that allows protesting soldier's funerals with "god hates faggots"—one of the least pc actions I've ever witnessed—and only restricts the distance at which the protest can take place. Also, Obama and Erdogan both fuck goats all day long. This might land me in jail in Turkey, but I'm gonna guess most people reading this post (including Obama, if he didn't have better things to do) would roll their eyes and move on. There are libel laws that might provide some limited personal protection, but this would be civil court and not criminal court.
oxide 11y ago
no, you can't. PC bullies are nothing more than just that. impotent bullies. they have no power and have no law behind them. if I want to call someone a goat fucker, be it leader of a country or the guy next door, I can do so without fear of prosecution.