6 ms·

Here's the relevant law about deliberate defamation of foreign heads of state. (Up to five years in jail OR a fine.) https://dejure.org/gesetze/StGB/103.html h

Here's the relevant law about deliberate defamation of foreign heads of state. (Up to five years in jail OR a fine.) https://dejure.org/gesetze/StGB/103.html https://dejure.org/gesetze/StGB/103.html Anyone know where the section is on the government required authorization of prosecution?

germanier 11y ago
§ 104a StGB
kafkaesq 11y ago
Section 104a - Conditions for prosecution Offenses under this chapter shall only be prosecuted if the Federal Republic of Germany maintains diplomatic relations with the other state, reciprocity is guaranteed and was also guaranteed at the time of the offense, a request to prosecute by the foreign government exists, and the Federal Government authorizes the prosecution.
- danielvf 11y ago
  Thanks to both you and germanier.
donquichotte 11y ago
Article 103 appears to state that the insulted party must have been in Germany on official duty during the occurance of the insult.
- Xylakant 11y ago
  Heads of state or members of the government on official duty. Since Erdogan is a head of state the requirement does not apply.
- germanier 11y ago
  It needs to be parsed like this Whosoever insults [a foreign head of state], or, [with respect to his position, a member of a foreign government who is in Germany in his official capacity], or [a head of a foreign diplomatic mission who is accredited in the Federal territory] shall be liable to imprisonment not exceeding three years or a fine, in case of a slanderous insult to imprisonment from three months to five years.
  - chris_wot 11y ago
    I don't suppose it say how big the fine must be? Could they fine the comedian 1 Deutschmark? That would make a pretty clear point that the Court wasn't impressed with the entire process...
    - germanier 11y ago
      Well the fine would be in Euro ;) Apart from the usual rules there is nothing specific about the fine in that law, no. They would need to fine him at least five days worth of income if I haven't missed something. But a symbolic fine is really unlikely. Much more important than the amount fined is the label "guilty" or "not guilty". I can't see how they would rule him guilty but resort to a token fine in that case. If the court thinks the law should not be applied, they will find a reason not to. I just quoted the entire provision (where the wording and length is absolutely standard for a German criminal law). There are no boxes which when ticked would result in an automatic conviction. The courts have a great degree of freedom to decide their cases. (Usually they base it on older decisions by higher courts which usually spell out what criteria should be used to interpret a law.)
      - chris_wot 11y ago
        Whoops! That's embarrassing, sorry about that... I'm very interested in how this plays out.
morgante 11y ago
How can Germany, an ostensibly free nation, have such a law? If you can't insult political leaders, you don't have free speech. End of story. Political speech is the most important form of speech to protect.
- bayesian_horse 11y ago
  You can actually insult political leaders all day long. Unlike less known persons, which can sue for defamation. There was even a case in Germany where someone argued for the assassination of a Politician, a clear crime, in other words, and acquitted at trial because the target was a public figure. And even if you couldn't, insults on that level are absolutely unnecessary to discuss any issue.
  - morgante 11y ago
    > You can actually insult political leaders all day long. Then why is there a prosecution moving forward for insulting a political leader and a specific law which applies only to insulting foreign political leaders?
    - bayesian_horse 11y ago
      Because 1) there is a special law against defamation of a foreign nation's representatives and 2) there is no specific exception written into any applicable law, but courts have consistently ruled this way because of freedom of speech etc It is expected that there will be no punishment in this case.
- wayn3 11y ago
  You can insult political leaders. You can NOT insult FOREIGN political leaders.
  - morgante 11y ago
    I don't see how that makes it any more acceptable. Foreign political leaders are still public figures who clearly have an influence on the direction of public policy in your nation.

germanier 11y ago

§ 104a StGB

kafkaesq 11y ago

Section 104a - Conditions for prosecution Offenses under this chapter shall only be prosecuted if the Federal Republic of Germany maintains diplomatic relations with the other state, reciprocity is guaranteed and was also guaranteed at the time of the offense, a request to prosecute by the foreign government exists, and the Federal Government authorizes the prosecution.

danielvf 11y ago
Thanks to both you and germanier.

donquichotte 11y ago

Article 103 appears to state that the insulted party must have been in Germany on official duty during the occurance of the insult.

Xylakant 11y ago
Heads of state or members of the government on official duty. Since Erdogan is a head of state the requirement does not apply.
germanier 11y ago
It needs to be parsed like this Whosoever insults [a foreign head of state], or, [with respect to his position, a member of a foreign government who is in Germany in his official capacity], or [a head of a foreign diplomatic mission who is accredited in the Federal territory] shall be liable to imprisonment not exceeding three years or a fine, in case of a slanderous insult to imprisonment from three months to five years.
- chris_wot 11y ago
  I don't suppose it say how big the fine must be? Could they fine the comedian 1 Deutschmark? That would make a pretty clear point that the Court wasn't impressed with the entire process...
  - germanier 11y ago
    Well the fine would be in Euro ;) Apart from the usual rules there is nothing specific about the fine in that law, no. They would need to fine him at least five days worth of income if I haven't missed something. But a symbolic fine is really unlikely. Much more important than the amount fined is the label "guilty" or "not guilty". I can't see how they would rule him guilty but resort to a token fine in that case. If the court thinks the law should not be applied, they will find a reason not to. I just quoted the entire provision (where the wording and length is absolutely standard for a German criminal law). There are no boxes which when ticked would result in an automatic conviction. The courts have a great degree of freedom to decide their cases. (Usually they base it on older decisions by higher courts which usually spell out what criteria should be used to interpret a law.)
    - chris_wot 11y ago
      Whoops! That's embarrassing, sorry about that... I'm very interested in how this plays out.

morgante 11y ago

How can Germany, an ostensibly free nation, have such a law? If you can't insult political leaders, you don't have free speech. End of story. Political speech is the most important form of speech to protect.

bayesian_horse 11y ago
You can actually insult political leaders all day long. Unlike less known persons, which can sue for defamation. There was even a case in Germany where someone argued for the assassination of a Politician, a clear crime, in other words, and acquitted at trial because the target was a public figure. And even if you couldn't, insults on that level are absolutely unnecessary to discuss any issue.
- morgante 11y ago
  > You can actually insult political leaders all day long. Then why is there a prosecution moving forward for insulting a political leader and a specific law which applies only to insulting foreign political leaders?
  - bayesian_horse 11y ago
    Because 1) there is a special law against defamation of a foreign nation's representatives and 2) there is no specific exception written into any applicable law, but courts have consistently ruled this way because of freedom of speech etc It is expected that there will be no punishment in this case.
wayn3 11y ago
You can insult political leaders. You can NOT insult FOREIGN political leaders.
- morgante 11y ago
  I don't see how that makes it any more acceptable. Foreign political leaders are still public figures who clearly have an influence on the direction of public policy in your nation.