4 ms·

Well, one might also get more performance per dollar if they programmed FPGAs, DSPs or GPUs instead of CPUs, and one might also get more performance per dollar

by _yosefk 11y ago

Well, one might also get more performance per dollar if they programmed FPGAs, DSPs or GPUs instead of CPUs, and one might also get more performance per dollar if they designed their own hardware. (I do the latter for a living.) However, "performance of Node, PHP and Python" is a sensible goal in its own right, and I disagree with the implication of your comment, and that of sister comments, that it is not a sensible goal. There's a lot of useful code written in Node, PHP and Python, and moreover, this might remain true for a long while because "something more performance oriented" is likely to be less programmer productivity oriented in that a correct, easy to use program or library will take more time to get done. Also, Node and Python specifically can be damn fast (numpy for instance is unbeatable for large linear algebra programs, because it uses optimized libraries under the hood, etc. etc.) And some things simply can't be done in a satisfactory fashion in anything but a dynamic language, any more than you can get Apache to run on a GPU. "Dynamic" is a feature, not just a source of overhead. So "a performance-obsessed scripting language developer" is a perfectly fine way to describe oneself IMO.

pjc50 11y ago
Aren't all three of those languages single-threaded? So the only way to distribute work is to run one copy per core and distribute on a per-request basis?
- krylon 11y ago
  Python, at least, uses actual OS-level threads. However, it also uses a global interpreter lock (GIL), so only one thread can execute Pyton code at a time. But when writing Python modules in C, you have control over acquiring and releasing of the GIL, so before starting some long running operation, you give up the lock. Node, AFAIK, uses several OS-level threads under the hood for disk I/O. And with PHP, a web server probably will run multiple threads for handling requests concurrently. So the impact might not be as big as for performance-oriented code in C/C++, but it is not necessarily nil, either.
  - _yosefk 11y ago
    With Python, numpy for instance will use multiple threads under the hood, even though the calling Python code might be single-threaded, and numpy's execution is completely unaffected by the GIL. Incidentally, to get Python code to run really fast, you'll have to offload most of the heavy lifting into libraries in any case. But it's still a Python program - in that most of the source lines, especially most of the source lines unique to the program as opposed to library code, will be still in Python, and in that in some cases you couldn't have written the program in a "more performant" language getting either the performance or the flexibility (Go for instance doesn't have operator overloading nor can it be used to implement linear algebra as efficiently as C/assembly; so a pure Go program doing linear algebra will be both slower and uglier than a Python program using numpy. A Go program using a C/assembly library will be very marginally faster than said numpy program, and just as ugly as the pure Go program.) Also, in my understanding TFA applies to multiple processes just as much as multiple threads.
    - jarvist 11y ago
      A recent alternative is to write the entire program in Julia. It is a lot less ugly than Numpy, and so performant that most code (other than steadfast libraries such as BLAS and LAPACK) are written in Julia itself. http://julialang.org/ http://julialang.org/
- tyingq 11y ago
  Facebook's HHVM runs php interpreters as threads.
- BuckRogers 11y ago
  >Aren't all three of those languages single-threaded? So the only way to distribute work is to run one copy per core and distribute on a per-request basis? To clarify- languages are never by definition, single threaded. The reference implementations largely are. Some background- in Python's case, PyPy supports STM which removes the global interpreter lock, while retaining backwards compatibility with existing code. The answer to your question is no. All 3 are not single threaded.

by _yosefk 11y ago

pjc50 11y ago

Aren't all three of those languages single-threaded? So the only way to distribute work is to run one copy per core and distribute on a per-request basis?

krylon 11y ago
Python, at least, uses actual OS-level threads. However, it also uses a global interpreter lock (GIL), so only one thread can execute Pyton code at a time. But when writing Python modules in C, you have control over acquiring and releasing of the GIL, so before starting some long running operation, you give up the lock. Node, AFAIK, uses several OS-level threads under the hood for disk I/O. And with PHP, a web server probably will run multiple threads for handling requests concurrently. So the impact might not be as big as for performance-oriented code in C/C++, but it is not necessarily nil, either.
- _yosefk 11y ago
  With Python, numpy for instance will use multiple threads under the hood, even though the calling Python code might be single-threaded, and numpy's execution is completely unaffected by the GIL. Incidentally, to get Python code to run really fast, you'll have to offload most of the heavy lifting into libraries in any case. But it's still a Python program - in that most of the source lines, especially most of the source lines unique to the program as opposed to library code, will be still in Python, and in that in some cases you couldn't have written the program in a "more performant" language getting either the performance or the flexibility (Go for instance doesn't have operator overloading nor can it be used to implement linear algebra as efficiently as C/assembly; so a pure Go program doing linear algebra will be both slower and uglier than a Python program using numpy. A Go program using a C/assembly library will be very marginally faster than said numpy program, and just as ugly as the pure Go program.) Also, in my understanding TFA applies to multiple processes just as much as multiple threads.
  - jarvist 11y ago
    A recent alternative is to write the entire program in Julia. It is a lot less ugly than Numpy, and so performant that most code (other than steadfast libraries such as BLAS and LAPACK) are written in Julia itself. http://julialang.org/ http://julialang.org/
tyingq 11y ago
Facebook's HHVM runs php interpreters as threads.
BuckRogers 11y ago
>Aren't all three of those languages single-threaded? So the only way to distribute work is to run one copy per core and distribute on a per-request basis? To clarify- languages are never by definition, single threaded. The reference implementations largely are. Some background- in Python's case, PyPy supports STM which removes the global interpreter lock, while retaining backwards compatibility with existing code. The answer to your question is no. All 3 are not single threaded.