4 ms·

Is that combating racism, or is it combating information? Is there such a thing as a racist fact?

by gozur88 11y ago

randyrand 11y ago
If a fact shows an ethnic group in negative light, then its possible its better to ignore that fact and not speak of it. By not speaking of it, it may make the overall problem of racism go away faster. So goes the theory at least.
- gozur88 11y ago
  I don't find that theory very sound. Facts that are unspoken become "things everybody knows but can't speak of", and in a society governed by things everybody knows but can't speak of things that aren't actually true can't be refuted.
adrusi 11y ago
Well the implication is that the parent assumed that the officer was racist against [ethnic group]. It's not a fact that that's who was stealing, it's an observation filtered through the man's biases. Not that I think it's appropriate to assume malice on the part of the police officer, nor to censor everything race-related that you find objectionable.
wyattpeak 11y ago
There may be no such thing as a racist fact, but there's definitely such a thing as racist dissemination of a fact. If, for example, you post a list of facts about crime rates among a particular ethnic group apropos of nothing, it's probably racist, regardless of whether or not the facts are true. That said, in this case I think it's just the bad taste that one often gets in their mouth knowing that a racist might read a comment you make and have it confirm their prejudices. As for how it's combating information: is there meaningful information lost here? He could have told you what colour his pants were, too, but it wouldn't add a whole hell of a lot to the story.
- randyrand 11y ago
  > is there meaningful information lost here? IMO, its not so much the loss of information, its the implication that racial problems should not be considered racial problems.
  - wyattpeak 11y ago
    I agree it carries that implication, and I think it's right. Very little is added to the discussion of curbing gang crime by bringing race into the picture. What are the specifically Black solutions to gang behaviour? What are the Hispanic ones? On the other hand, the culture of racism and intolerance such discussions engender has real and measurable downsides. Cf. every discussion of police interactions by minorities.
    - randyrand 11y ago
      I completely disagree. The culture of black Americans is unique. It's different than the culture of Asians, Hispanics, Whites, ect, and initiatives will effect each culture differently. That much seems certain to me. To say that there is a one size fits all solution to gang violence is to ignore important cultural differences. To just look at family structure: 75% of black families are not married and 60% of mothers with multiple children have them to different fathers. As for how we tackle gangs, I'd need to study to problem longer. But its a hunch of mine that the above family statistics play a role in their formation.
- cb18 11y ago
  Apropos of people see the world in different ways, you aren't the arbiter of what is relevant for everybody else. You're feelings have no bearing on the range of legal actions available to other people. regardless of whether or not the facts are true. What kind of state of mind are you in bro? whether or not the facts are true. ? What do you think the definition of 'fact' is?
spacehome 11y ago
Sure there is. When reality is racist, so are facts.
- randyrand 11y ago
  Thats a jump in logic. How does reality being racist imply that a fact is racist? And not other things? Is everything racists under a racist reality? How do we draw these lines?
  - spacehome 11y ago
    I don't see why you think it's a jump in logic. And I'm saying facts are racist. I'm not saying other things are not racist. I'm not really sure where you're leading with this point. Let me be more concrete and give an example. Blacks living in the U.S. have (in a statistical average sense) a higher sensitivity to sodium than whites, leading to higher rates of hypertension in that demographic. If you're a physician treating black patients or you're a black American yourself, this is an important fact to know. This is a racist fact, because it differentiates reality along racial fault lines. There are plenty of examples of situations where I could get you to say that one course of action is the rational or best option, but if I keep the same logical structure and swap out some nouns and adjectives, what was once the best option is now racist, and I'm a racist if I take this course of action. I won't give any examples because they're too inflammatory, and I don't feel like getting downvoted into oblivion. I'm pretty sure you can fill in the blanks if you're so inclined. Since realizing this, I no longer view "racist" as a derogatory. It's the way the world already is, so my choice is either to have an accurate view of reality or an impoverished one.

Is that combating racism, or is it combating information? Is there such a thing as a racist fact?

by gozur88 11y ago

Is that combating racism, or is it combating information? Is there such a thing as a racist fact?

If a fact shows an ethnic group in negative light, then its possible its better to ignore that fact and not speak of it. By not speaking of it, it may make the overall problem of racism go away faster. So goes the theory at least.

gozur88 11y ago
I don't find that theory very sound. Facts that are unspoken become "things everybody knows but can't speak of", and in a society governed by things everybody knows but can't speak of things that aren't actually true can't be refuted.

adrusi 11y ago

Well the implication is that the parent assumed that the officer was racist against [ethnic group]. It's not a fact that that's who was stealing, it's an observation filtered through the man's biases. Not that I think it's appropriate to assume malice on the part of the police officer, nor to censor everything race-related that you find objectionable.

wyattpeak 11y ago

There may be no such thing as a racist fact, but there's definitely such a thing as racist dissemination of a fact. If, for example, you post a list of facts about crime rates among a particular ethnic group apropos of nothing, it's probably racist, regardless of whether or not the facts are true. That said, in this case I think it's just the bad taste that one often gets in their mouth knowing that a racist might read a comment you make and have it confirm their prejudices. As for how it's combating information: is there meaningful information lost here? He could have told you what colour his pants were, too, but it wouldn't add a whole hell of a lot to the story.

randyrand 11y ago
> is there meaningful information lost here? IMO, its not so much the loss of information, its the implication that racial problems should not be considered racial problems.
- wyattpeak 11y ago
  I agree it carries that implication, and I think it's right. Very little is added to the discussion of curbing gang crime by bringing race into the picture. What are the specifically Black solutions to gang behaviour? What are the Hispanic ones? On the other hand, the culture of racism and intolerance such discussions engender has real and measurable downsides. Cf. every discussion of police interactions by minorities.
  - randyrand 11y ago
    I completely disagree. The culture of black Americans is unique. It's different than the culture of Asians, Hispanics, Whites, ect, and initiatives will effect each culture differently. That much seems certain to me. To say that there is a one size fits all solution to gang violence is to ignore important cultural differences. To just look at family structure: 75% of black families are not married and 60% of mothers with multiple children have them to different fathers. As for how we tackle gangs, I'd need to study to problem longer. But its a hunch of mine that the above family statistics play a role in their formation.
cb18 11y ago
Apropos of people see the world in different ways, you aren't the arbiter of what is relevant for everybody else. You're feelings have no bearing on the range of legal actions available to other people. regardless of whether or not the facts are true. What kind of state of mind are you in bro? whether or not the facts are true. ? What do you think the definition of 'fact' is?

spacehome 11y ago

Sure there is. When reality is racist, so are facts.

randyrand 11y ago
Thats a jump in logic. How does reality being racist imply that a fact is racist? And not other things? Is everything racists under a racist reality? How do we draw these lines?
- spacehome 11y ago
  I don't see why you think it's a jump in logic. And I'm saying facts are racist. I'm not saying other things are not racist. I'm not really sure where you're leading with this point. Let me be more concrete and give an example. Blacks living in the U.S. have (in a statistical average sense) a higher sensitivity to sodium than whites, leading to higher rates of hypertension in that demographic. If you're a physician treating black patients or you're a black American yourself, this is an important fact to know. This is a racist fact, because it differentiates reality along racial fault lines. There are plenty of examples of situations where I could get you to say that one course of action is the rational or best option, but if I keep the same logical structure and swap out some nouns and adjectives, what was once the best option is now racist, and I'm a racist if I take this course of action. I won't give any examples because they're too inflammatory, and I don't feel like getting downvoted into oblivion. I'm pretty sure you can fill in the blanks if you're so inclined. Since realizing this, I no longer view "racist" as a derogatory. It's the way the world already is, so my choice is either to have an accurate view of reality or an impoverished one.