7 ms·

I always liked Michael O. Church's way of phrasing this from his post on "the Haskell tax" (I think it's been taken down). Paraphrasing, he said something like

by p4wnc6 11y ago

I always liked Michael O. Church's way of phrasing this from his post on "the Haskell tax" (I think it's been taken down). Paraphrasing, he said something like, "most jobs require you to have work experience that is exponentially better than the work experience they will give out." That is a huge red flag for me. If a place is straining itself to "hire the best" and put candidates through the paces of a very difficult interview process, but then the actual job is some full-stack bullshit where your specialty or past experience is completely disregarded and you just do whatever random work happens to someone's misguided priority this week (which is almost every start-up job) it's just a bad, bad deal.

overcast 11y ago
God damn, I am stealing that quote. In regards to those "hire the best", where the application process is more drawn out than top secret government clearance. Those just aren't for me. I'm not looking for top tier(I'm not), but I am looking for intellectual stimulation, and being involved in something that someone will actually be using. I get the majority of my satisfaction watching others use something I've created. My rant is over!
jared314 11y ago
"It’s ridiculous, but most companies demand an astronomically higher quality of work experience than they give out." Why programmers can’t make any money: dimensionality and the Eternal Haskell Tax - Michael O. Church [1] [1] https://web.archive.org/web/20151221082425/https://michaelochurch.wordpress.com/2014/06/06/why-programmers-cant-make-any-money-dimensionality-and-the-eternal-haskell-tax/ https://web.archive.org/web/20151221082425/https://michaeloc...
- danieltillett 11y ago
  Developers need to get away from the idea that it is the companies responsibility for your career development. You are responsible for your own career development. The company has hired you to do a job and they pay you for doing that job. Do not expect anyone else to invest in you unless it is in their interest.
  - p4wnc6 11y ago
    That's like saying developers need to get away from the idea that it is the company's responsibility to pay them salary, offer retirement benefits, provide them shelter from the weather while working, etc. The company may not have any literal obligation to provide such things, and no one cares. If they don't provide such things, reject them, move on, life's too short.
    - danieltillett 11y ago
      No it is the companies responsibility to pay you a salary (and any other conditions negotiated or legislated) in return for your labor. Of course companies invest some resources in career development as part of their salary package, but it is likely to be less than what is ideal for you as an individual since you can walk out the door at anytime. Every developer needs to take control of their own career development because they gain the most out any investment. This does not mean that you always take the highest salary, but you need to look at training and career development as an extra that is part of your overall salary package. In some cases the training offered to you is more valuable to you than it costs the company to provide and in other cases it is better to take the cash and invest it yourself. The important thing is take control of your own career development and don’t expect it to be handed to you by someone else.
  - pdeuchler 11y ago
    It is in their interest. You want the best people at their best positions so you can leverage them to make more money. If your company doesn't care about making sure people are empowered to make the business money then I'd be worried about how they're going to pay your salary in the future.
    - danieltillett 11y ago
      If empowering and training is in their interest then the company (if it is smart) will provide it. The problem is that because you can leave at anytime the ideal investment for the company is likely to be less than what is ideal for you.

by p4wnc6 11y ago

overcast 11y ago

God damn, I am stealing that quote. In regards to those "hire the best", where the application process is more drawn out than top secret government clearance. Those just aren't for me. I'm not looking for top tier(I'm not), but I am looking for intellectual stimulation, and being involved in something that someone will actually be using. I get the majority of my satisfaction watching others use something I've created. My rant is over!

jared314 11y ago

"It’s ridiculous, but most companies demand an astronomically higher quality of work experience than they give out." Why programmers can’t make any money: dimensionality and the Eternal Haskell Tax - Michael O. Church [1] [1] https://web.archive.org/web/20151221082425/https://michaelochurch.wordpress.com/2014/06/06/why-programmers-cant-make-any-money-dimensionality-and-the-eternal-haskell-tax/ https://web.archive.org/web/20151221082425/https://michaeloc...

danieltillett 11y ago
Developers need to get away from the idea that it is the companies responsibility for your career development. You are responsible for your own career development. The company has hired you to do a job and they pay you for doing that job. Do not expect anyone else to invest in you unless it is in their interest.
- p4wnc6 11y ago
  That's like saying developers need to get away from the idea that it is the company's responsibility to pay them salary, offer retirement benefits, provide them shelter from the weather while working, etc. The company may not have any literal obligation to provide such things, and no one cares. If they don't provide such things, reject them, move on, life's too short.
  - danieltillett 11y ago
    No it is the companies responsibility to pay you a salary (and any other conditions negotiated or legislated) in return for your labor. Of course companies invest some resources in career development as part of their salary package, but it is likely to be less than what is ideal for you as an individual since you can walk out the door at anytime. Every developer needs to take control of their own career development because they gain the most out any investment. This does not mean that you always take the highest salary, but you need to look at training and career development as an extra that is part of your overall salary package. In some cases the training offered to you is more valuable to you than it costs the company to provide and in other cases it is better to take the cash and invest it yourself. The important thing is take control of your own career development and don’t expect it to be handed to you by someone else.
- pdeuchler 11y ago
  It is in their interest. You want the best people at their best positions so you can leverage them to make more money. If your company doesn't care about making sure people are empowered to make the business money then I'd be worried about how they're going to pay your salary in the future.
  - danieltillett 11y ago
    If empowering and training is in their interest then the company (if it is smart) will provide it. The problem is that because you can leave at anytime the ideal investment for the company is likely to be less than what is ideal for you.